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Hungary and Romania face off over an ethnic dispute

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Published 21 February 2013

For Bucharest, exchanging accusations with Hungary offers an opportunity to temporarily distract attention from its domestic situation. The country is emerging from the political crisis that engulfed it in 2012 caused by a dispute between Ponta and President Traian Basescu, writes Stratfor.

Stratfor is a Texas-based global intelligence company.

"In recent statements, Romanian Foreign Affairs Minister Titus Corlatean said relations between Romania and Hungary are currently complicated because of "mistakes" made by Budapest regarding ethnic Hungarians living in Romania.

Corlatean was referring to Hungary's decision to raise the flag of the Szekely Land -- the region where a subgroup of ethnic Hungarians live in Romania -- at the parliament in Budapest. This is the most recent incident, but the historical divisions between the two countries date back centuries.

Located between Central and Southeastern Europe, Romania and Hungary have a long shared history. Most of the territories of modern-day Hungary and Romania at one point were under Ottoman and later Habsburg rule.

The Carpathian Mountains are the main geographical feature in the region, and the official border between the two nations has repeatedly moved from one side of the mountains to the other since the Middle Ages.

The most recent significant redefinition of borders took place after World War I with the 1920 Treaty of Trianon, under which Hungary lost two-thirds of its territory to its neighbors, including Transylvania to Romania. As a result, Hungarians became the largest minority group in Romania.

According to the 2011 census, there are about 1.2 million ethnic Hungarians in Romania, making up 6.5% of the total population. Half the Hungarians living in Romania are Szekelys, a Hungarian-speaking subgroup living mostly in what is known as the Szekely Land, an ethno-cultural region in eastern Transylvania.

From the Middle Ages through the mid-19th century, the region enjoyed varying degrees of autonomy, until the Austro-Hungarian Compromise of 1867 and several administrative reforms in the 1870s abolished all the autonomous areas in the Kingdom of Hungary, including Szekely Land.

After World War II, the Romanian government created a Hungarian Autonomous Region in the Szekely Land, which existed from 1952 until 1968 when the Communist government reformed the administrative divisions of the country to eliminate any identification of regions by ethnic or cultural divisions.

Following the fall of Communism, Romania's subsequent democratic governments preserved the administrative division of the country, which led to the creation of several initiatives by ethnic Hungarians who wanted to re-establish autonomy.

The political representation of the ethnic Hungarians in the country is fragmented, with three relatively small parties courting the votes of ethnic Hungarians. The largest of the three is the Democratic Union of Hungarians in Romania, a party that is often represented in parliament and has been part of governing coalitions.

The Democratic Union and other Hungarian groups staged peaceful demonstrations in Romania in 2012, demanding greater political decentralization as a first step toward autonomy.

Ethnic Hungarian minorities in Romania are often used as a political issue by the governments in both Hungary and Romania. Hostility to the Treaty of Trianon is at the foundation of Hungarian nationalism, which calls for the restitution of the territories that were lost after World War I.

Budapest also has used the ethnic minority issue as a lever to assert its influence abroad. In May 2010, the Hungarian Parliament decided to give ethnic Hungarians who live outside the country the right to claim Hungarian nationality as a second citizenship -- which potentially includes the right to vote.

This move caused tensions with Romania and Slovakia, which also acquired formerly Hungarian territory through the Treaty of Trianon and with it, a substantial Hungarian population.

On 3 February, Romanian officials in Covasna and Harghita counties (two of the three counties with a substantial Szekely population) banned the hoisting of the Szekely flag atop office buildings.

In response, Hungary's ambassador to Romania expressed his support for Szekely autonomy on national television. A few days later, Hungarian Deputy Prime Minister Zsolt Semjen encouraged local governments to hang the Szekely flag in solidarity with the Hungarian minorities in Romania.

Romanian officials denounced these actions as interference by Hungarian politicians in domestic Romanian affairs.

Such tensions between Hungary and Romania are not unusual, and typically have not significantly hindered relations between the two countries. Hungary, for example, supported the entry of Romania into the European Union in 2007.

The two countries are also important trading partners. Indeed, some officials have attempted to downplay any strain in ties, with Romanian Prime Minister Victor Ponta on 18 February denying the existence of problems between Bucharest and Budapest.

However, the dispute over the Szekely Land comes at a unique moment. Both Hungary and Romania are feeling the consequences of the economic crisis in Europe. This is particularly true in the Szekely region, one of the poorest in Romania, making it particularly susceptible to political manipulation, from both Romanian and Hungarian politicians.

In this context, the appeal to nationalism is often a common strategy for governments under financial pressure. Hungary will hold general elections in 2014, and Prime Minister Viktor Orban's government is under pressure from the most nationalist forces in his own party, as well as from the far-right Jobbik party.

The Hungarian government is also hoping to attract the votes of ethnic Hungarians living in Romania, some of who are now legally allowed to vote in Hungarian elections.

For Bucharest, exchanging accusations with Hungary offers an opportunity to temporarily distract attention from its domestic situation. The country is emerging from the political crisis that engulfed it in 2012 caused by a dispute between Ponta and President Traian Basescu.

Romania had three prime ministers in 2012 amid protests over the country's economic situation and mutual animosity between the main political parties, and the situation only began to stabilize after the December elections.

To a large extent, the claims by ethnic minorities in Romania are largely intended to preserve their cultural identity -- the ability to teach their own language in schools or fly their own flags, for example. These issues alone do not represent an immediate threat to the territorial unity of the country.

However, the European crisis has strengthened regionalist sentiments that were previously dormant elsewhere, and Romania fears the quest for more cultural autonomy could escalate rapidly.

In addition, the European crisis is creating a fertile ground for the rise of nationalist parties that criticise the presence of "foreigners," which they consider both immigrants and minority groups in their countries.

It is this confluence of factors that makes the use of nationalist rhetoric in Romania and Hungary increasingly dangerous with the deepening of the economic crisis."

COMMENTS

  • The article attempts to maintain some balance in a troubled relationship, which needs to and is desirable to improve. Some facts need to be clarified: the Trianon pact was intended to break the Austrian-Hungarian empire, an empire which gobbled many other nations that had no place in such an union - a small scale replica of Soviet Union. So there was no loss for Hungary, since those territories never truthfully belonged to her. A very gifted nation, the Hungarians were for too long prisoners to unwarranted political ambitions peddled by dubious politicians. It will better serve their nation if these proud Hungarians will focus on their country's economy, cultural priorities inside and outside of Hungary vs. stirring conflicts inside poor communities. These politicians come and go, but nations remain and they have to deal with consequences.
    My two cents.

    By :
    Cristian
    - Posted on :
    22/02/2013
  • " So there was no loss for Hungary, since those territories never truthfully belonged to her."

    Lol

    http://www.historicaltextarchive.com/hungary/hu13.gif

    By :
    Rhobar
    - Posted on :
    22/02/2013
  • I would point out the fact that, according to the most recent census carried out in Romania, only around 500 individuals declared themselves as being Sekely. It's good to know that in the past centuries, the Szeklers had a clear ethnic identity (see, for instance, the treaty Unio trium nationum concluded between Magyars, Szeklers and Saxons). Therefore, any mention of "substantial Sekely population" is technically an error, as the population referred to in this article has declared itself as being Magyar, not Sekely. So, what are we speaking about, Sekely autonomy or Magyar autonomy, within a national, independent and sovereign country?

    By :
    Sitara
    - Posted on :
    22/02/2013
  • Yes, we are talking about regional autonomy. In a country that defines itself as being a nation state, even though it has never been one. The Hungarian community, similarly with other ethnic groups, thrived within the current borders of Romania well before the latter was established. The fact that its demand for increased autonomy inflates Romanian nationalist rhetoric merely showcases the weakness of the leaders in Bucharest, who see any push for self-determination as an attack on sovereignty. So, a regional flag was displayed. That's an issue? Really? Many other historic flags are on display around Europe, including Romania, yet no one has ever complained about those, prior to this incident.
    As for regional autonomy, it would benefit the entire country, not only the Szeklers or Hungarians. What Romania is lacking is possibly the single most important ingredient of civilized societies: a sense of identity at the level of local/regional community. Other historical regions in Romania, with well defined traditions, should learn and embrace the Hungarian effort. In the heart of Transylvania, the country's most developed region, you can drive on a 54 kilometer stretch of highway, hundreds of kilometers away from the nearest highway network. Plans for new works have been frozen in Bucharest, which chose to chase down European funds for infrastructure investments in other regions. It's just an example, from a nearly endless list, of how crippling an incompetent and corrupt centralized administration can be.
    But yeah, let's pick on cultural diversity instead of respecting it and celebrating it. Let's continue to vote in politicians for their nationalist rhetoric, not for their clear plans and commitment to address poverty, intolerance, health and education reform or increased social seclusion. And in doing so, let's continue to marvel and feel insulted at how the country is being perceived by European nations that have largely decided to move on, a few generations ago.

    By :
    Rudiger
    - Posted on :
    22/02/2013
  • Local autonomy's virtue are well known - however, it can not be based on nationalistic pride and agenda, but on cultural and economic pursuit.
    The true problem facing both countries is their own inept and corrupted political leadership. Neither nation can not brag about the sense of identity displayed by its leaders.
    The spirits are immediately inflamed when Unio trium nationum is mentioned, or a 13 century map is presented as a recipe for future glory - the same glory France might be able to claim after the Napoleonic wars.
    There is much to be gained in the future of Europe, no matter how patchy it looks like today, to be bothered by the ghosts of the past.

    By :
    Cristian
    - Posted on :
    22/02/2013
  • Very much agreed, let’s talk about regional autonomy but let it be an autonomy based on development and economic criteria, not merely on ethnic ones. And Romania is a nation state according to its Constitution; as you probably know, this thing will change only when the Romanians shall decide so. Which would be about never, in my opinion, regardless of who is going to lead Romania in the following years. This is the Romanians’ will and any society that call itself “democratic” and “civilized” ought to respect it, isn't it? I say this again, this is not about what one or another politician may want at one time, it’s about what the (overwhelming) majority of the Romanians want. So, let’s call for a referendum in order to settle the matter, would you agree on that?

    The matter with the Szekely flag…personally, I’m much more worried about the fact that a Romanian could go to buy a bread in Romania and be ignored (if not outright insulted) because he didn’t ask for it in Hungarian, taking into account that Romanian is the only official language of Romania. As you probably know, nobody in Romania has anything against displaying a flag as long as the Romanian laws are respected; on official buildings could be displayed only the insignia indicated by the law. Under the law, you can display whatever flag you like and nobody will say a single word to you.

    Romania has in fact a strong sense of identity at the level of local communities and the regionalization could actually be a step forward for its development. But, as I said before, only as long as it would be made in the interest of Romania and Romanian citizens, not for other reasons. As I said, a national referendum would be the most democratic way to settle this matter too. A local administration could be as corrupt and incompetent as the central one, so this is not an argument but merely an assumption that has yet to be confirmed.

    I don’t have anything about cultural diversity. I merely asked, since the article was speaking about Szeklers as about a “substantial population” in two of Romania’s counties, where are they, because I checked the site of the Romanian National Institute of Statistics and failed to find any people who declared themselves Szekely during the last census. And, to be frank, if I’m very sensible to the European opinion when it comes about something wrong done by me and my countrymen, I cannot care less about what Europe has to say on patriotism. EU can try and sweet talk other nations into what it wants, when it comes to Romania, I would advise them to save their breath. As for voting politicians for nationalist rhetoric, I find your advice as being extremely useful…for the upcoming elections in Hungary.

    By :
    Sitara
    - Posted on :
    22/02/2013
  • The author (Stratfor) mentioned, as a historical precedent, the creation of Hungarian Autonomous Region in Transylvania's heartland. The measure was imposed by Stalin, as a blue print for nationalistic mischief - same way Stalin hacked Moldova, Ukraine, Poland, Germany, Armenia, and the list goes on.
    It's interesting if you sit down for a glass of wine with a Hungarian guy living in Hungary. From the common jokes you share about "ardeleni", the people living in Transylvania, regardless of ethnicity, you can easily depict the same sense of family, community, stern humor, apparent slowness, and that ruggedness of spirit which prevailed over so many conflicts and contacts with square heads.
    Who in his right mind refuses a sale of bread to his customer? Economically, how he can survive?

    By :
    Cristian
    - Posted on :
    22/02/2013
  • Having the majority express and impose its will on how local communities should organize themselves has nothing to do with autonomy. Nor with democracy. It's precisely such ignorance that raises tension and blocks progress. Should national referendums be organized to decide on how communities could organize themselves? That's communist nostalgia 101. Yes, have the majority impose its ignorance on a minority. Guess what, that will only harden the minority's resolve. Not surprisingly, it would push it to react in the same fashion in the areas it controls. That's the kind of 'leadership' that leads to civil war. Not to mention that Bucharest would be wise to refrain from addressing ethical issues via referendums, lest Europe gets a nasty refresher on just how enlightened its Eastern part is. Just have a referendum on rights for religious and sexual minorities, see how well that goes (hint: there are telling polls on the subject). Yet you often see Romanians whining about not putting up with EU interference in internal affairs, as if anyone cared.

    As for Hungary, the rise in nationalist rhetoric over the last few years is regrettable indeed. The Hungarian society has become more polarized, which follows a widespread pattern across the EU, brought about by economic depression. Yet with all its many troubles, Hungary is across the board a more developed, civilized and progressive country. Romanian politicians should focus on getting the country on the same track, not pick on the EU or minority rights (yes, including increased autonomy) every chance they get. But that would require an objective assessment on the state of the country; less talk and more action. Not much of that in sight.

    By :
    Rudiger
    - Posted on :
    24/02/2013
  • Well, Rudiger, i'd like to hear more about how such autonomy could be obtained and function: by administrative fiat, by preventing any democratic process to decide and function, or by an over the top decision! What "progressive" means in such case?
    Progressive is a foul word in Texas and a holly one in California. And none of those states wishes, in earnest, to secede.
    Avoiding the will of the people, by implementing outside rules? Looks very much like the Vienna diktat - it did not work too well, especially for Hungary. Romania bounced back fairly well, with the obvious dark communist holocaust, hoisted over everyone's head.
    Today's EU offers an incredible opportunity for people's pursuit of happiness - everyone, as individual, able to live and work where you please and abide by both local, country's regulations, with a big EU beauraucratic umbrella. Individual's rights - untouchable and already in the statute. Collective rights in the context of avoiding majority's desire? Could be considered more of a tantrum vs. a need. Carving countries and territories based on which side of the bed the individual wakes up in the morning seems a paranoid view for a united Europe. Not very European if you ask me, and quite against the fabric of what EU tries to achieve long term.
    If Romania has more forwarded nations closed to its borders, that's great to have someone to look up to. Is there a Romanian ethnic party in Hungary's leading coalition as UDMR was for 20 straight years? Or a Slovakian one? I'm not familiar with Hungary' internal political life. I presume it lives by what it professes.
    Polarization is not a bad news - people in both countries had to "adjust" their views for too long, waiting for the "party's" cue. Let them debate - they will probably elect better, more responsible leaders in the future, so they can search for true solutions, not driven by nationalistic lowest denomitor.

    By :
    Cristian
    - Posted on :
    24/02/2013
  • So, the majority should not express its will about how the local communities should be organized and function. Who should, then? You? Me? Tokes Laszlo? Jose Manuel Durao Barroso? You seem to forget (or never have known) something that was written down nearly 2000 years ago by St. Augustin, namely “Omni civitas corpus est”. No region is a island. Any region is part of a country and does keep economic, financial and any other kind of ties with other regions as no region can function by itself. As long as I’m personally affected by the manner in which the regions are constructed and perform, I find perfectly normal to have something to say about how the regionalization is made. Or, by the way, I find democratic to have a say about allowing the process of regionalization to be carried out in my country in the first place. I do have a right to say whether I want or not my country divided into regions and how this division would be made. Is there anyone to deny me this right? Is there anyone who says this division should be made against the people’s will? Ignorance? So was probably called the stubbornness of those who didn’t want to understand how glorious and prosperous shall be the world under the Third Reich’s umbrella. A majority imposing its will over a minority’s? Here is a paradigm shift for you: this is how democracy works. Unanimity, if that’s what you’re looking for, you can find nowadays in North Korea. Or Venezuela, whichever you like most. Or, because we’re still speaking about local communities, let’s make every single village a region, because I said so. I’m sure I can find a million or two of people who’d agree with this. Hell, let’s make the building where I live a region; after all, it has about 500 inhabitants, just as many as Szeklers are rumored to be in Romania after the last census. But if you want regionalization made solely on ethnic criteria or other kind of irrationality, then you have the answer on who is really at fault for the current tensions. And resolve shall harden on both sides, if needed, but, as Romanians always did, we desire peace and understanding, knowing that any war, civil or of any other kind, shall bring nothing more than misery and destruction. For everyone.

    Frankly, I’m at a loss about what Europe has to do with a member state deciding to organize referendums about issues of national importance. There is something in the TEU or TFEU forbidding it? Ah, enlightening, such a fascinating word. Well, tell me then, what should I choose, “enlightenment” as defined by a bunch of individuals or respecting the will of a people expressed through a referendum? Europe should remember the saying about the pot and the kettle, as far as I’m concerned, as it’s in no position to criticize Romania or any other country.

    Hungary deserves a better government than the one it currently has. Their economic situation is disastrous and I heard this from Hungarian officials, not from the media. When you’re taxing 127% of one person’s salary income, there’s something very, very wrong with both the economic and political environment. So no, I wouldn’t take Hungary as example for Romania. I’d only take Istvan Szecheny or at least Emanoil Gojdu. As for being more developed and civilized, I’m not going to deny it, congratulations to Hungary, to Austria or to Slovakia, as I heard countless times that Budapest and Bratislava are carbon copies of Vienna. I disagreed but those stubborn Austrians kept saying this, God knows why.

    By :
    Sitara
    - Posted on :
    24/02/2013
  • wow. Either the romanian government pays a lot of people to post "civilian opinions" or the same government's brainwashing and history falsification program since the ceausescu era has been very effective.

    for the non-paid readers/posters: the szeklers had autonomy in their self-rule and administration as early as the middle-ages (!)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Sz%C3%A9kely_people (read the part under territorial and administrative organisation)

    why can't romania accept an idea that was in practice (and working) hundreds of years ago. it is exactly this century-old tradition of self-rule combined with the universal love hungarians have for their freedom (yes, hungarians don't just preach freedom like, say, american, they are ready to die for it, just look at the uprisings against their foreign oppressors of the last centuries) why the szeklers will never accept the romanians' pre-medieval mindset. another kosovo? only if romania's politicians will show the same balkanic neglect for the national rights and pride of other people as milosevic did. so far it doesn't look good.

    By :
    hunyadi
    - Posted on :
    25/02/2013
  • ps: such autonomy was not limited to the szeklers: the transylvanian and zipser saxons, as well as the yazyges and the cumans of the plains enjoyed it too, throughout extended periods of hungarian history.

    now this is the main difference between hungary and romania throughout history: co-habitant nations like the slovaks, serbs and romanians could prosper inside hungary for 1000 years and more, while the romanian state has always sought the most violent means to suppress it's minorities. where are the greek, bulgarian, hungarian minorities of wallachia and moldavia gone? even anno 2013 the csango hungarians of moldavia are denied such basic human rights as education (church masses, media, name it...) in their own native language. the hungarians of transylvania are the last ones standing, and this seems to irritate romanians more than anything else.

    By :
    hunyadi
    - Posted on :
    25/02/2013
  • Hi hunyadi. As a Wallachian, I’m always glad to wish well to a Hunyadi. Now, for your information, the Romanian government has little money to pay decent wages to professors and doctors working here in Romania, let alone to pay people to post their opinions. As far as I know, the Hungarian government faces the same difficulties, so I’m going to assume that you’re just a well-intended person, commenting on this site in the same fashion as I do. Am I wrong to do that? I would hope not. Concerning the things commented so far on this article, I know my English is quite poor but I thought I managed to make myself understood. Alas! I didn’t. No one ever denied the social and political status achieved by the Szeklers during Middle Ages in Hungarian ruled Transylvania. No one intended to question the rights established by Unio trium nationum for Hungarians, Szeklers and Saxons in Transylvania. I only asked a simple question, as a Romanian reading that Romania has today a significant Szekely minority. Which is where are the Szeklers? The official site of the Romanian NIS is displays the final results of the 2002 census (the results of the last census – 2011 are due to be published this year) and you can find there Hungarians, Roma people, Germans, Russians, Serbians, Bulgarians, Greeks (were you asking where are the Greek and Bulgarian minority?) and, surprise, even Csango people but no Szeklers. That’s the only thing I asked because, well, it occurred to me that, after all, Flanders is not inhabited by Dutch people. So again, where are the descendants of the Szekely Dosza Gergey?

    All the Romanians, especially the Transylvanians, know how much Hungarians love their freedom that’s a very commendable trait. The freedom of others seemed to be of less value to them in the past centuries as proven by the same Unio trium nationum according to which Orthodox Romanians had no civil or political rights in Transylvania up to XVIIIth century. To be fair, Hungarian peasantry was receiving the same treatment as the Romanians from the Hungarian „grofi”. Is this treaty an invention of Ceausescu, I wonder? Or the Vienna diktat is, perhaps? Should we ask the Serbians and Slovakians how well they fared in the great kingdom of Hungary? Should we ask something about Slovakia and Slovakian citizenship? To settle the matter, I propose that an international commission should analyze the situation of minorities in both Hungary and Romania and the results to be published for anyone to see. Does it work with you? I thought so.

    And the best thing comes last, as always. „the romanian state has always sought the most violent means to suppress its minorities”. Romania used such violent means to suppress its minorities that the NGO representing the Magyars’s rights in Romania was part of the Romanian government for 15 years on the row. Moreover, a Saxon, a German ethnic, is today possibly the most respected and appreciated politician in Romania and Romanians would elect him as their president or PM in a second. Wow. That’s what I call „oppressing” the minorities. Why, but that’s worse than the horrors occurred in Ip, Treznea or Huedin. Should I say, for the whole Europe to hear, what happened there and who did it?

    By the way, Romanians are not irritated by the Magyar ethnics. They are simply wary of some of them, if you ask me, and the reasons have just been listed above. On the other hand, Hungary...you see, France took (mostly by force) Alsace, Lorraine, Bretagne, Roussillon, Picardy , Franche-Comte or Bourgogne and made them French. Other countries couldn’t do the same even if they had a millennium to do the job. That could be pretty irksome for some politicians like Fuzes Oszkar who dared to tell Romania how should be amended the Romanian Constitution, like Orban Viktor who came here and ordered the Hungarians to boycott the last referendum or like that politician who wanted the Jews to be deported or something along the lines. So, if you want to find a new Slobodan Milosevic, you have to look for him in your own backyard. Or in Jobbik.

    By :
    Sitara
    - Posted on :
    25/02/2013
  • "So there was no loss for Hungary, since those territories never truthfully belonged to her."

    Funny. I invite you to watch a 12 minutes long, very interesting animation on the history of Europe. Those interested in the history of Romania in the form we know today please start from 11:02. For them, there is nothing to watch before that.

    http://youtu.be/DRM5Ceu4zEA

    or

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRM5Ceu4zEA

    By :
    neddie
    - Posted on :
    27/02/2013
  • Anything you want but please, I beg of you, don't ask us to learn history from Youtube. Or Wikipedia.

    By :
    Sitara
    - Posted on :
    27/02/2013
  • Cristian, autonomy is not a threat to a country's sovereignty, just as the existence of South Tirol does not 'carve up' Italy. I would say it's exactly the opposite, in enriches it. How does it work? It's simple: an increased level of self-determination, including some degree of legislative power and control over revenues. Does that sound so threatening to you?

    Sitara, you conveniently ignore the specific circumstances of the Hungarian community in Romania. You elaborate on why, as a Romanian citizen, you should have equal say on the rights of communities that predate the country itself as if we were talking about random groups of people. This is not "let's make every single village a region", and to even suggest that, shows how skewed your perception of history and nation building is. This is a community with a very strong sense of identity, forged through background, culture, administration, war, which has benefited from various levels of autonomy for centuries. For less than 100 years, their patrons have changed; their sense of identity has not. Moreover, it is being strengthened with every centralized attempt to reign it in. You can have all the referendums you want, it will not transform them into 'good Romanians'. If that's what you want, learn to respect them, their traditions, their desire to uphold their culture and values. THEN ask them to be good Romanians. And in the process, maybe people like you would open their horizons and learn to appreciate what diversity truly brings to the table.

    Furthermore, I find it funny that you'd try to make a point about the region's identity by counting 'real' Szeklers. It's completely irrelevant. Your own presumably Romanian origin could be dissected in a similar fashion, but it brings zero value to the discussion. The simple fact is that the population of the "Szekler lands" has always had a regional identity, reflected in its status and cohesion. To a large degree, it has coalesced with a Hungarian identity, but the regional perspective is as strong as ever. And I'm telling you this as a member of the Hungarian community in Transylvania for whom the Szekler flag does not have a particular meaning, since I grew up elsewhere. For the same reason, I view their quest for autonomy in precisely the same way that I would view a similar effort from, say, Maramures, or any other region with a strong, historical, identity - you can include the whole Transylvania here, romanians, hungarians and all. And I do so with the strong belief that autonomy would actually defuse regional and ethnic tensions, not foster them.

    As for what the Austrians say about Bratislava and Budapest, guess what, the exact same thing can be said about Cluj, Timisoara, Arad, and the list goes on. But instead of ineptly trying to turn that into a negative, you could eavesdrop less through the grapevine, travel more, and find out for yourself just how different all those "carbon copies" are. In fact, they're just as different as the romanians from here, those from there, and those from elsewhere. Yet, funny enough, this basic fact doesn't negate any of their similarities.

    By :
    Rudiger
    - Posted on :
    28/02/2013
  • It seems this is a conversation everyone comes and goes with the same set of ideas. It will not sway anyone.
    Some of those were meant to bring conflicting view to the undecided - something the mediocre, no, inept political leaderships of both countries were able to propagate.
    The Romanian politicians never treated the minorities with the respect they deserve, or needed - but they showed the same disrespect to the ethnic Romanians. Very poor excuse for governance.
    The Hungarian politicians, by poor economics, ran their own country into the ground and tax their businesses out of existence. Policies, politics, economics- they were all squandered. They have no bragging rights.
    So in, this context, the entire conversation has something medieval to it. I don't try to offend anyone. I'm sorry to be attracted into this - you'all drive safely.

    By :
    Cristian
    - Posted on :
    28/02/2013
  • You're right. But then again, I don't think we're representative examples for the extreme views on this issue. Quite the contrary. In fact, I believe that the majority of romanians and the majority of hungarians are not as distant in principles as it seems. It's simply a matter of getting over the past, and seeing things for what they are: the romanian side needs to accept the fact that citizenship alone does not automatically define identity, be it at individual or community level. Which means respecting and appreciating cultural and ethnic diversity, discussing about minority rights without prejudice, and getting over the XIX century nationalist propaganda which is still reflected in highschool history books (and which a new generation of romanian historians is bravely trying to dispel). Having a national debate on establishing new socio-economic regions, while quickly ignoring the desires of one of the most compact, traditional and particular communities in the country, is not the way forward.

    On the other hand, hungarians need to get over 1918 and associated nostalgia. Consequently, they need to respect romanians as their fellow countrymen and stop allowing intolerant factions , which stir up anti-romanian and anti-state attitudes, to represent them in any way. Bragging about your non-romanian identity while representing the country and all its citizens at cultural or sporting events is, again, not the way forward.

    Both sides need to be in sync for progress to be made. Yet the opportunity to get the wheels in motion is wider for the romanian side, since it's proportional to the weight of its input in shaping national policies. It's not that hard: open the dialogue and take the sensible desire for regional self-determination seriously. At the same time, strengthen the state and enforce the rule of law, in order to prevent abuse and so that romanians won't have nightmares about a Great Hungary every time some moronic hungarian politician says something stupid.

    By :
    Rudiger
    - Posted on :
    28/02/2013
  • I am following this thread with interest. Perhaps there is room for some enlightenment with regard to to the issue at hand.

    I find it difficult to understand those who defend the Romanian Government on this issue: no one has made reference to any basis in law which would allow them to deny a minority in their country from displaying their flag. Could someone please enlighten as to what legal basis the Romanian Government can do this?

    Conversely, it seems the Szekelys have every right to display their flags. They are by far the largest minority in Europe without any form of autonomy. Their right can be sourced in at least two areas of law:

    1) The right of self-determination (based in Customary International Law; Several Treaties of which Romania is a signatory; and several General Assembly Resolutions)
    2) Fundamental rights of self-expression (based, for example, on several Articles of the European Convention on Human Rights)

    I would like to add that it is not unusual for Governments and members of the majority population to proclaim that they meet the minimum standards of tolerance and non-discrimination - that is until they are challenged in a court of law or a preliminary ruling is delivered by the CJEU.

    By :
    Modern
    - Posted on :
    01/03/2013
  • Rudiger, I don’t have any intention of ignoring the circumstances of Hungarian community in Romania. I don’t have any intention to dictate the rights of every community living in Romania, either. I apologize if I wasn’t clear enough in my wording. I did say however that I do have a right to decide whether the process of regionalization should be implemented or not in my country. I may be very well an ignorant, part of an ignorant majority, to quote you, but I do have the right to have a say concerning the general undertaking of regionalization, however ignorant could it be. Am I wrong? Secondly, if I was misunderstood, I used the village analogy only to point out that so far, those who advocate regionalization done mainly on ethnic criteria (at least with respect to Covasna, Harghita and Mures counties) have brought just as many reasons to prove that it should be the best way of doing it as I did wanting regions based on villages. So, again, why would be better to have regions the fashion UDMR wants them? So far, I couldn’t hear a single logical reason from them and you know as well as I do why we cannot give them “carte blanche” in this matter: extremely poor governance during the years when they endorsed any criminal or stupid measure taken by the governments they supported with the single purpose to keep their hands in the cookie jar. For doing nothing useful in order the improve their conationals’ standard of living.

    On the other hand, who or what gives you the right to issue judgements about how my perception of history is as long as you have just threatened with civil war unless the Romanian politicians comply with your demands? Is the this your way of choice to solve a problem? The politicians come up with a presumably stupid decision and for this reason innocent people should kill each other? How skewed is YOUR sense of history since you can serenely talk about civil war in XXIth century Europe? Add to this the statement of the mayor of Sf. Gheorghe, a man who swore to respect the Romanian Constitution, who said that unless the autonomy is given, the Romanians living in the area could suffer the fate of the Serbians of Kosovo. Tell me please, how should we react to this?

    Personally, I have nothing against autonomy and I’ll give it in a second to Banat, Maramures or any other historical region of Romania if they would ask it. Although France for instance hasn’t given so far autonomy to any region from the many it has. Why? Simple enough, because it would based on economic criteria and not ethnic. Give me the same arguments that Banat or Crisana could bring up, convince me that all the Romanian citizens, regardless of their ethnicity, would benefit from this division and I’ll agree with it. But when I hear from a Magyar ethnic writer that Hungarians cannot see the Romanians as nothing more than their serfs as they were for centuries, excuse me if my first reaction is self-sefense. Not to mention that propaganda is one thing and things experienced by yourself and your relatives and friends are another matter altogether. I don’t want to feel insecure as a Romanian travelling through Romania and I’m sorry, this is not propaganda but things actually happened to people I know.
    Respect is the key matter in this issue but so far I heard only about the respect the majority owes to the minority. I heard nothing about the respect owed by the minority towards the country which belongs to them all and its laws. So I would say: keep your identity, your traditions and values, celebrate and enrich them but do so without spitting in our faces. THEN I shall respect you. Then I’ll be glad to celebrate along you.You know as well as I do that we Romanians have always been glad to have among us people who could teach us what we couldn’t learn during centuries of serfdom; that explains why the Saxon and Suabian minorities were so much respected and admired.
    I insisted on the matter of the count of the Szeklers because I found equally funny that, tehnically speaking, we have a Szekely land without Szeklers. Keeping in mind the situation in the past centuries and the fact that Csango people did actually declar themselves as Csango, I was wondering why the Szeklers didn’t declar themselves Szekely. History may be interpretable but the counts aren’t.

    As for the Budapest and Bratislava remark, I mentioned what the Austrians were saying with the sole purpose of returning poisonous dart for poisonous dart. I apologize for that. I actually visited Budapest and Vienna and I know firsthand how different they are. As a conclusion, far from me to want the minorities discriminated but I do want the majority to not be discriminated, either. Convince me it’s not going to happen, convince me that regionalization/autonomy the manner you want it would be benefic for every Romanian citizen and you’ll have my vote.

    Cristian, I’m sorry if I gave you any impression of intolerance or narrow-mindedness, it wasn’t my intention to do so. However, I confess myself guilty of wanting an eye for eye and a tooth for a tooth, a completely undignified behaviour, for which I'd like to apologize again.

    By :
    Sitara
    - Posted on :
    01/03/2013
  • Sitara, there's nothing I can say or write that would help you get over your bias against Hungarians, which is plainly obvious in your messages. If and whenever that happens, it's a process that you'll have to go through on your own. You have a thinly veiled hypocritical stance when it comes to Hungarians, which is very noticeable from your own arguments. You keep talking about the autonomy of the Szekler region as of an 'ethnic' autonomy. I trust you know full well how silly that sounds: ethnic autonomy would mean an administrative union of Hungarian-dominated communities. It would mean an autonomous entity in which Rimetea/Torocko, as a Hungarian village in Alba county, would have equal status with a village in the Szekler region and be part of the same self-governing structure. You'd give autonomy in a second to Banat or Maramures, but not to another REGION, a socio-economic entity, that has had a more potent and better documented historical identity than both. But it happens to be populated mainly with Hungarians. How unpleasant, isn't it?

    As for talking about civil war, I'm amused by the fact that you've conveniently glossed over the context I put it in, to try to make yourself look more progressive. Let me break it down to you: there is a reason why Tokes Laszlo is becoming more popular in Szekler Land, together with extremist views on how the matter should be handled. There is an increasing number of Szeklers/Hungarians who have lost their patience with the UDMR/RMDSZ trying to take baby-steps on the issue. Their model? South Tirol. South Tirol's "recipe" for success? Aggressively campaigning for their autonomy and refusing the Italian version of regional self-determination (which, similarly to what Romanian politicians are discussing, was aimed at keeping the disputed areas within regions which were ethnically dominated by the majority). Tensions rose through the 60's, the rhetoric became ever more intolerant, culminating in extremist factions committing terrorist acts, with a number of casualties. The situation was diffused in 1971, when Italy virtually accepted most of South Tirol's initial demands.

    You see where this is going, right? Hungarian politicians, know perfectly well that escalating the rhetoric will likely result in obtaining regional autonomy for the Szekler Land. The reason why most of them don't want to go down that road, comes from the understanding that it could raise ethnic tensions in the country to new levels, impacting on the entire minority, not only on those living in Szekler Land. For many, South Tirol is a success model to be followed (without condoning the violent incidents of the time). Others are acutely aware that Romania is not Italy. Indeed, the process in South Tirol was eventually beneficial for Italy as well. This is why Italian dominated regions have associated themselves with South Tirol to create a Euro region (Tyrol-South Tyrol-Trentino), based on shared economic interests. Can Romania and Romanians go through a similar process of maturation when it comes to dealing with similar issues? They'll have to. And this is precisely why starting to discuss now a framework of autonomy for the Szekler Land, which is acceptable for both sides and where sovereignty is protected, as well as the rights or romanians living there, is by far the best option. For everyone. Unless, of course, you're driven by xenophobic stereotypes and not the voice of reason.

    Modern: we have a court decision confirming the legality of using the Szekler flag on public buildings, together with the Romanian flag. But it still irks some Romanians and Romanian politicians to no end. And that's for a historical flag. In Mehkerek, Hungary, which has a sizable Romanian residential community, there is a Romanian (national) flag on the town hall, next to a Hungarian and an EU flag. And no one's fighting over it. This isn't about flags. It's about widespread animosity towards Hungarians, particularly from Romanians living outside of Transylvania, fueled by decades of nationalist propaganda and ideological history books. There are similarly intolerant Hungarian factions, mainly on the far right. But mainstream Hungarian society has largely moved on. One can only hope that Romania, with its politicians and people, will board the same train. But it won't be quick and it won't be painless, I'm afraid.

    By :
    Rudiger
    - Posted on :
    02/03/2013
  • Rudiger - I certainly agree. However, in circumstances such as this and in place of engaging in disputes over history, I sometimes find it useful to ask concrete questions...in search of concrete answers.

    For example, TEU Article 2:

    "The Union is founded on the values of respect for human dignity, freedom, democracy, equality, the rule of law and respect for human rights, including the rights of persons belonging to minorities. These values are common to the Member States in a society in which pluralism, non-discrimination, tolerance, justice, solidarity and equality between women and men prevail."

    I find it difficult to reconcile some of the views, actions of the Romanian Government (and some commentators) with the above principle.

    By :
    Modern
    - Posted on :
    03/03/2013
  • It’s getting better and better. I asked you to give me arguments to support your claim that regionalization/autonomy the fashion you want it would be the best way forward for the Romanian citizens inhabiting those areas and you give me none, choosing instead to accuse me of having bias against Hungarians, of being hypocritical and xenophobic. How do you know that? Have I accused you of any bias against Romanians when you referred to them as an “ignorant majority”? Have I accused you of animosity or xenophobia against Romanians when you spoke about their supposed backwardness and all but endorsed foreign interference in the internal affairs of Romania which would be perfectly justified when dealing with an “unenlightened” people? No, I didn’t, because I don’t think that such opinions could bear a single ounce of prejudice or animosity against Romanians; you’re perfectly entitled to have your own opinions and freedom of speech is guaranteed through the Constitution.

    I sincerely hope I didn’t leave the impression that, by granting autonomy on ethnic criteria, I was speaking about encompassing in the same self-governing structure all the Hungarian, Turkish, Serbian or Ukrainian villages scattered through Romania. Goodness, no! Forgive me if I let you believe this. I’d still give autonomy in a second to Banat or Maramures if they would ask it and of course I would give it in the same conditions to the Szekely Land. You said that you’re endorsing autonomy for Szekely Land the way you would for Maramures. So do I. As Banat or Muntenia would not give as main argument for autonomy the fact they’re populated mostly with Romanians but instead reasons based on development, better absorption of EU funds and generally aiming to raise the living standard of their inhabitants, I think it’s fair to hear the same thing from the Szekely Land. Am I wrong?

    To be frank, I wasn’t aware until today that there may be a “context” in which civil war could be justified. In my opinion, no cause can ever be considered noble enough as to justify insulting, attacking, harassing or killing other people solely because they’re holding different beliefs or are part of another ethnic group. But then, that’s only my opinion. On a different note, as the UDMR and PCM leaders have chosen to speak rather about Kosovo than about South Tyrol, I confess that I know few things about this region’s status. First, I’m glad to hear you’re not condoning any terrorist actions and I can only hope that several Magyar ethnic mayors, part of the Romanian local administration and not members of extremist factions (I think?), would agree with you. Secondly, as many Hungarians are acutely aware that Romania isn’t Italy, many Romanians, especially from Transylvania, are equally aware that Hungarians are not Austrians, either. And that the Government of Vienna is not the Government of Budapest; you and I both know the reasons. Thirdly, because, as you say, Italy eventually benefited of granting autonomy of South Tyrol and many Italian dominated regions chose to associate themselves therewith for economic reasons, do speak more to us about some economic benefits following a presumably granted autonomy to Szekely Land the same fashion South Tyrol achieved in Italy. I mean, politicians from UDMR and PCM. After all, that’s the main concern and main goal of every responsible politician – to undertake appropriate measures in order to insure economic growth and generally increasing living standards for the population. Especially because it’s about one of the poorest areas of Romania, as the article said, everyone, including Romanians living there or elsewhere, is extremely interested to consider any opportunity that could allow them to have a better life. That’s what I would like to hear from UDMR/PCM leaders instead of “symbolic aggression”, “media lynching” and such things. I suppose you know why this is not a matter that can be handled by the Romanian Government; any agreement between the Government and UDMR/PCM leaders would hit the same stonewall – the Romanian Constitution. As you know, for the regionalization to be made in the first place, the Constitution needs to be amended and the same goes for granting territorial autonomy. Furthermore, as Art. 1 stipulating that Romania is a sovereign, independent, unitary and indivisible National State cannot be subjected to revision, I think that would take drafting a new Constitution and of course holding a national referendum to be approved. Hence, how do you intend to convince the Romanians to agree with including the notion of territorial autonomy in their Constitution since, as far as I know, no other historical region of Romania is pushing for autonomy? So far, people like Tamasz Sandor, Tokes Laszlo, Szasz Jeno, Antal Arpad, Raduly Robert, Veresztoy Attila, Kelemen Hunor, Cseke Attila or Marko Bela haven’t done a spectacular job. On the contrary.

    And now we’re reaching the flag matter…Since you chose to present your own assumptions about how Romanians feel towards the Hungarians and why do you think they’re feeling the way you suppose they feel, instead of better using the space for giving the whole and accurate picture concerning the flag matter, I shall do the honors, with the mention that I stand corrected for any error I may commit. Okay, let’s get started. Firstly, the Romanian law stipulates that on official buildings (this is what the whole thing is about, not about displaying whatever flag you like in your own yard or something) can be displayed only the Romanian flag, the flag of the Council of Europe and the insignia of the territorial-administrative unit (which is the county) in the case that was approved. Flags of other countries can be displayed only on special occasions but not permanently. Now, the Szekely land encompasses mainly two counties, Harghita and Covasna and possibly Mures, although Romanians are the majority there. The Szekely land is no officially recognized territorial unit as aren’t the rest of the historical regions so the Szekely flag is no official flag under the law.What happened with this flag? Covasna City Hall displayed this flag passing it as the Covasna county flag. I should mention that media spoke about the fact that Romanians living there had nothing against having it as the county flag, only they asked to have inserted therein an element to highlight their existence and presence as inhabitants of Covasna. Their request was ignored and it may be this the crux of matter in this problem, from Romanian perspective. So, a flag bearing only Szekely symbols was displayed as flag of the Covasna county. True, the Covasna court decided in favor of Covasna County Council/City Hall and against Covasna Prefecture, namely accepting that flag as the Covasna county’s flag but you forgot to tell that this decision was subjected to appeal by the Covasna Prefecture and the Appellate Court of Brasov has yet to render its ruling. That’s one thing. The other thing is Harghita City Hall who displayed the same flag as flag of the Harghita County. Only that in this case the Appellate Court of Targu Mures issued a final and irrevocable ruling according to which this flag is not the flag of the Harghita county. I’ll leave to you to say whether this ruling was obeyed or not by several mayors from Harghita (who were displaying also the Hungarian national flag) and what kind of reasons were given for keeping this flag on official buildings. This is what I know on this matter and if I omitted something, as I said, I accept corrections.

    As you say, this is not about flags. That particular law could be changed and very few Romanians would have anything against having another flag fluttering on a building. What is this about, from our perspective, is violating the rule of law and generally about disrespect towards Romania and Romanians. This wasn’t done by members of a far right faction but by officials of the Romanian state who swore to respect the Romanian Constitution, so I cannot conclude other that they should be part of that Hungarian minority still having to move on while the main part of the Hungarians have already done it, as you said. Not that I care much about respect as regards my person for instance or even for this ever humiliated and punished country but I do care a great deal about how the Romanians living there are treated. This is the truth, as far as I’m concerned, for anyone who cares to know it but, as the Romanians bitterly found out during the past summer, truth is not a valued currency in Bruxelles.

    By :
    Sitara
    - Posted on :
    03/03/2013
  • It's not getting better and better. It's getting worse. You're simply repeating yourself, and rephrasing the same sweetened xenophobic mantra which you set off with.

    I don't have to give you any arguments as to how/why Szekler autonomy would benefit YOU, or like-minded Romanians. Nor does any Szekler. It would benefit the Romanian society as a whole, but in ways you obviously can't comprehend. I explained to you why Szekler autonomy is an understandable and reasonable regional goal. Beyond that, I couldn't care less about your nationalist pride, or ways to appease it. The Szeklers are not demanding autonomy for your sake. They're doing it for their own. The question is whether they're entitled to it and justified in their effort, not whether it makes you uneasy.

    Your obsession with misquoting me about civil war and foreign intervention is, at best, strange. As is your perception that it's the Hungarians who should move on. In other words, an ethnic minority which demands appropriate recognition of its identity is supposed to move on. Well let me put it this way. What if next month Szekler Land held a local referendum and decided to create an independent state? All Romanians living there would suddenly be Szekler citizens. You know, the exact same way as the Szeklers themselves woke up as being part of Romania, without anyone asking them (or consulting them about that precious Constitution you're so proud of). I guess Romanians wouldn't like that very much, would they? Well, Szekler leaders could just tell them to 'move on'. How's that working for you? How would YOU deal with such a situation? Would you condone military intervention from Bucharest to restore state authority? Well then... you're supporting civil war, you're okay with civilian casualties, including innocent women and children, for the sake of nationalism. See? I can play this game, too, and even better than you.

    It doesn't give me any satisfaction to talk about the backwardness of the Romanian society. But as anyone who's remotely informed about the EU knows, this isn't a personal opinion. It's common knowledge and documented by countless EU studies. Just have a look at EC's latest report on literacy, see how proud that makes you feel. I can say the same thing about Hungary. I've been fortunate enough to study, live and work in various countries, all more developed than any Eastern European state. There is no personal bias here, what I've stated about Romania, and the difference between the Romanian and Hungarian societies are well established and well known facts.

    You keep mentioning the Romanian Constitution. First of all, autonomy does not infringe on sovereignty. Second, just as laws can be wrong and obsolete, so can the Constitution. Romania's most reputable historian of the past 20 years, Lucian Boia, explains in detail why some parts of the Constitution are fundamentally flawed. Besides, no one's upset about the fact that the Constitution will be modified anyway, or that the head of state and the prime minister have routinely proven that they couldn't care less about laws, as have countless other politicians. But when it comes to Hungarians, my Lord, how can we even suggest that part of the legal framework covering minority rights could use a significant upgrade? It's just another example of the hypocrisy associated with 'Hungarian affairs'.

    I've explained to you why the Szeklers are demanding regional, not ethnic autonomy. Yet you keep hammering at the same gross misconception. For you, regional autonomy needs to be grounded in optimal economic return. News flash: hardly any regions with any degree of autonomy within Europe were created that way (yes, that includes South Tyrol, economic aspects were secondary during its creation). The current Romanian counties would certainly not meet the criteria; the discussed new regions wouldn't, either. So what are we talking about here? Szekler Land is by far one of the most traditional, compact, and particular regions in the country. By any modern standard of what an administrative unit, representative of a socially and culturally distinct community, should be, there is no other region in Romania for which you can make a better case. The only thing that's ethnic is your obsession with counting the number of Hungarians living there. It's regional autonomy, plain and simple.

    Flags; again, it's funny how you think that going over the history of the issue serves you as some sort of argument. It does just the opposite. The essence of the story is that quite a lot of Romanians are somehow offended by the Szekler flag. They have the national flag on official buildings as well, but lo and behold, they don't like the fact that the majority of the population in the region would prefer the Szekler flag as their symbol. Why? Because of the same ignorant stance that makes this process so difficult. First, Hungarian kings allowed them to settle around the Szekler communities; Ceausescu encouraged the process, in order to dilute the strength of Hungarian administrations, particularly in urban areas. And now, they deny the Szeklers, the majority that has defined the character of the area for centuries, the right to use their symbols? And you wonder why this creates tensions... ?

    This was my last reply to you. No doubt you'd keep recycling the same ideas, just to try to find a new way to argue that Hungarians in Romania should live their lives according to Romanian sensitivities, no matter how un/reasonable those are. But I'm done highlighting the obvious. For me, what had to be said, has been said.

    By :
    Rudiger
    - Posted on :
    04/03/2013
  • Dear Rudiger,
    I would have been inclined to give you a lot of credit, based on the moderation of your comments until you wrote: "It doesn't give me any satisfaction to talk about the backwardness of the Romanian society". Very poor rhetoric - you said it though.
    How in the world someone could draw such a blanket conclusion, or include it in an intelligent conversation? We can talk about questionable individuals, or ANY individual, historical figures, politicians (against whom it's a perennial open season), but such a gross mischaracterization for an entire society or people is off limits.
    And almost the same against the Hungarian society - in your effort to sound balanced, you muddied both societies... Both of them,honestly fighting a horrid legacy and pushing themselves to acquire "normalcy".
    Now, what we have in your picture: 2 retarded societies, lead by unscrupulous leaders push two armies of fools to destroy each other.
    Because, as someone else put it, the heroic hungarians (or romanians, following the same logic), unlike Americans, as he put it, are able to die for the "cause".

    By :
    Cristian
    - Posted on :
    05/03/2013
  • Cristian. You would most likely agree with me in either of the following cases:
    - you did some research and/or are aware of human development indexes, Transparency International reports, EC studies, and other relevant information sources
    - you've lived/worked in various countries, so you have a wider perspective enabling you to draw comparisons between them.

    I happen to fulfill both criteria. There is nothing fake in what I wrote before. It is with genuine dismay that I note the state of the Romanian society. And I'm quite disappointed by some trends within the Hungarian society, as well. It's not a blanket statement. It's the general state of affairs. I didn't say, nor think, that it's relevant for all people. In fact, far from it - fortunately I know plenty of Romanians and Hungarians who would be cherished in any society. But the incredible level of corruption, the dysfunctional state, education, health and environmental protection systems render Romania a backward state, in comparison to the developed world of which it wants to be a part of. Hungary is also lagging behind.

    I'm not quite sure how you can find this surprising. Yeah, the legacy is bad. But it's what countries do with it that counts. In fact, part of this disease is precisely not acknowledging the gravity of the societal crisis. Just last night, one of leading news channels in Romania was broadcasting a debate under the headline: "Look who's giving us lessons: Germany, the most corrupt state". This wasn't the equivalent of the Daily Mail, spewing garbage about Romanians in the British tabloid universe. This was the equivalent of BBC. It pretty much sums up, for me, what irrational, dumb, nationalist pride does to the basic capability of common folk to look around, assess their situation objectively and try to make it better.

    By :
    Rudiger
    - Posted on :
    06/03/2013
  • Rudiger, you and I can vote with the remote control by changing the channel. If one judges the American public by watching Jerry Springer's shows, you would think America is an infantile and a primitive nation. Do it at your own risk. As for BBC, some other time.
    It's not about the political correctness, which I abhor, or trusting those studies. One can see without any effort the rule of law is compromised in both places: in a very rude and blatant way in Romania and a more "sophisticated" fashion in Hungary. The net result will spell disaster for both nations. Allowing those leaders to preach “patriotism” is a farce.
    By labeling a community or country, as anti-progressive or suffering of backwardness, no matter how unhappy you might be, or what studies you invoke, you re-create the narrative for social engineering that plagued Europe for most of its existence. That is making the Romanians, as any other nation, very nervous, bringing back times as Unio Trium Nationum, a de-facto form of Apartheid.
    Both nations have to deal with the enemies within: poor development, endemic corruption, preserving the rule of law (not the perverted form we have today), etc… Another form of dialog will emerge.

    By :
    Cristian
    - Posted on :
    06/03/2013
  • Well, Rudiger, what more it could be said on this matter, except for some conclusions. Let’s see:

    1.I’m a hypocrite and a xenophobe. No argument has been brought to support these charges but nonetheless I was tried and sentenced as a Hungarian hater because you decided that I’m one.
    2.I don’t need to hear any reason about how/why granting autonomy to the Szekler Land would benefit the Romanian society as a whole. So, it’s either that I’m not part of the Romanian society or that I’m not worth to be given any argument as I’m too stupid/ignorant/biased to understand them anyway. Interesting ideology, isn’t?
    3.According to you, Szeklers are entitled and justified in their effort to push for autonomy and this is why you shouldn’t give me or other Romanians any reason to agree with it. Well, let me put it this way. Romania fully respects all the European standards and regulations as regards the minorities’ rights, as it was mandatory requirement for EU admission. There’s no European or any kind of regulation to stipulate as mandatory granting autonomy to the minorities. There’s no law, written or unwritten, nor an established European practice that a state should give autonomy without considering social and economic factors, as well as the interests of ethnics of that state living there. Moreover, autonomy cannot be granted under the current Constitution. Admittedly, you can convince/twist the Government’s arm to subsequently amend the Constitution but no amendment can enter into force without being approved through national referendum. If there is one thing that the enlightened European states you admire so much have brutally drilled into the Romanians’ heads last summer, it’s that the rule of law shall be respected AT ANY COST. Even at the cost of 7,4 millions of votes. Wrong or obsolete Constitution? Just ask any developed and civilized Western state whether you should respect it or not because you think it’s unfair and see their answer. I suppose the Hungarians, being so much more civilized than Romanians, have long known that laws and Constitution should be respected including in their pursuit for autonomy and any form of terrorism falls under strict national and international regulations. No autonomy can be lawfully granted unless the Constitution is amended/replaced and the amendments/new Constitution approved through referendum. 20 millions of Romanians are thus perfectly entitled and justified to approve or to reject any change concerning the character of their state. As no other Romanian region wants autonomy, I trust you don’t want me to vote for autonomy simply for your sake since you didn’t ask it for my sake. Therefore I asked you to tell me why I should vote for the approval of that particular amendment, respectively how would your proposal benefit the Romanian society or the Romanians living there , but, my Lord, how dare I to ask you for reasons?! I’m just an unenlightened and ignorant idiot! Since you couldn’t care less for my concerns and interests, why should I care for yours?
    4.“Yes, have the majority impose its ignorance on a minority. Guess what, that will only harden the minority's resolve. Not surprisingly, it would push it to react in the same fashion in the areas it controls. That's the kind of 'leadership' that leads to civil war”. And “Not to mention that Bucharest would be wise to refrain from addressing ethical issues via referendums, lest Europe gets a nasty refresher on just how enlightened its Eastern part is. (..) Yet you often see Romanians whining about not putting up with EU interference in internal affairs, as if anyone cared.” You never spoke about civil war or about foreign interference in Romania ’s internal affairs yet I strangely keep misquoting you!
    5.No one claims perfection as regards the Romanian Constitution and we became perfectly aware of this especially in the last 8 years. I respect any reputed historian’s opinion but I prefer to use my own head. Besides, as the greatest French historian of the fifteenth century was proven after 466 years to be a fraud and his Memoirs a mostly unreliable source after being taken as “argent comptant” for almost half of millennium, I’m very cautious when it comes about historians, especially about those hailed as being “most reputable”.
    6.Everyone knows that in Romania was indeed induced a nationalist trend during the communist regime but it doesn’t mean that things were different in Hungary . Hungarians officials are stating until these days that Hungary intends to submit its borders to revision. Romanian nationalist propaganda is/was no better but no worse either than the Hungarian/Szekler nationalist propaganda. Nationalist propaganda is quite a common thing for countless countries but it looks like only Romania is taken to task for this. “Quod licet Jovi non licet bovi”? I could quote some very interesting paragraphs from various publications edited and distributed throughout the region (and not only, as it seems) and I assure you, those aren’t published by some far right factions.
    7.Creating an independent state encompassing the Szekely Land would be a highly unfeasible option for Szeklers, bearing no resemblance with either South Tyrol , Catalunya or even Kosovo. Nagorno-Karabakh would be the most fitting example, as far as I know. Besides, I heard Hungarians stating that Szekely Land cannot survive on its own surrounded by a hostile (even not in a violent way) country, let alone if the Romanian ethnics would withdraw from the area.
    8.I purposefully asked you about any economic benefits that the autonomy could bring to the region named “ Szekely Land ”. I wanted to hear the Hungarian version about the presumable economic opportunities created for the benefit of the local community. I did this because, according to the media, Romanians living in Covasna have declared that several foreign investments were rejected by the Covasna County Council because they feared the investors would bring there Romanian workers disrupting thus the ethnic balance. If that’s in any remotely way true, those who want this “regional” autonomy would be ready to run the whole area into the ground, keeping anyone, be him Romanian or Magyar, in the same state of extreme poverty only with the purpose to keep the region as “cleansed” of Romanians as much as possible. If so, who’s counting whom? To keep the region in a state of underdevelopment and poverty only to preserve its “ethnic purity” is a criminal endeavour, in my view, for both Romanians and Hungarians. And you ask me to endorse this…?
    9.Likewise, I let you answer to the flag question only because I wanted to see how honest you are on this matter. I did see, regretfully. You answered to a concrete question giving only one detail of the whole story, launching yourself afterwards into a diatribe on the subject of how much Romanians detest the Hungarians and how much nationalist propaganda is drilled into the Romanians’ heads since birth. I trust you do know that factual questions demand factual answers. The person who asked wanted only to know on what basis the Romanian authorities do not allow displaying that flag on official buildings. Any answer going beyond the legal framework regarding the issue at hand borders on dishonesty and manipulation, in my opinion. Any reader should be free to know the whole story and draw his/her own conclusions.
    10.“The essence of the story is that quite a lot of Romanians are somehow offended by the Szekler flag” Let me put it this way, for anyone who cares to understand. I’m from Muntenia and I live in Bucharest , which is part of the historical region of Muntenia. Under the law, I’m forbidden to display the historical Muntenian flag on the Bucharest City Council just as much as the Szeklers are to display the historical Szekler flag on the building of Harghita County Council. Should I conclude that I’m forbidden to display my region’s flag because someone feels offended by this flag? Of course not. This is law and it’s not negotiable, either for me or for anyone else.
    11.Since you elaborated your own interpretation on the flag matter, here’s mine: the essence of the story is that quite a lot of Romanians are offended by the breaking of the laws. Not by members of extremist factions but actually by representatives of the Romanian state.But, as you said, if all the politicians (be they Romanian or Hungarian, if I may add) proved that they couldn’t care less about the laws, how dare I to actually ask the Hungarians to respect the Romanian laws?!
    12.“..lo and behold, they don't like the fact that the majority of the population in the region would prefer the Szekler flag as their symbol” And the majority of the population in Romania would prefer a country without an autonomous HarCov! How would YOU like this? See where are we going this way? Because, to you, it’s perfectly reasonable to ignore the will of 20% of the population of Covasna. It’s outrageous only to ignore the will of 6,5% of the population of Romania. Lo and behold, not a trace of hypocrisy whatsoever! 40% of the Szekely Land (counting Mures) population is represented by Romanians and Roma people, yet its flag should display only Szekely symbols! Let’s holler about discrimination while we’re serenely discriminating the Romanians living there!
    13.“…they deny the Szeklers, the majority that has defined the character of the area for centuries, the right to use their symbols” There’s no problem with any minority using its symbols. The problems start when that minority wants to impose its symbols as regional symbols completely ignoring the other inhabitants of that particular region. 40% of the population of the Szekely Land is made by Romanians and Roma people. Ignoring their will in any matter concerning regional affairs, from flag to allocating funds, is not acceptable, in my opinion. Otherwise, I have to conclude that Romanians were good enough to be used as slaves in the Szekely Land (no one asked them if they like serfdom, either, by the way) but in your opinion their usefulness shouldn’t go further than that.
    14.“…to try to find a new way to argue that Hungarians in Romania should live their lives according to Romanian sensitivities, no matter how un/reasonable those are.” We only ask you to respect this country’s laws in the same fashion that Romanians are required to do. I do hope that’s not an unreasonable sensitivity.

    Granted, I said a lot of rather unpleasant things on this thread. But someone had to because we’re not discussing here the Ideal Autonomous Region but a particular region in a particular country. Any attempt to copy a Western model without adjusting it to the particularities of the country and people may have disastrous results, for everyone involved.

    By :
    Sitara
    - Posted on :
    06/03/2013
  • Well, Cristian, this is where we will have to agree to (strongly) disagree. What should make Romanians nervous is underdevelopment, intolerance and poverty. You abhor political correctness, yet you have issues accepting facts. Because we're talking about facts, not about some strange personal perception.

    As for social engineering, one of its most effective ways is blanket ideological rhetoric, usually with a nationalist flavor. Unfortunately, it seemed to have worked with you. Contrary to what many Romanians were taught or want to believe, Unio Trium Nationum was not conceived against Romanian interests. It was put together so that the upper classes of Transylvanian society would be protected from the peasantry. The treaty came as consequence of a revolt which was primarily organized by Hungarian peasants, under the leadership of Budai Nagy Angal, a Hungarian petty noble (yet the revolt is conveniently named 'the Bobalna revolt' in Romanian history books). The absence of the Romanian nobility from the treaty is normal: at the time, it was completely assimilated within the Hungarian nobility. In fact several of its members went on to occupy some of the highest positions within the Hungarian nobility. One of the leading Romanian specialists on the medieval history of Transylvania, Marius Diaconescu, who is part of the new wave of genuine academics (read: does research and references every statement, rather than filling in the unknown parts with romantic fantasies) wrote quite extensively on the topic; look it up. Who knows, maybe you'll come to realize that the social engineering you're talking about is much closer to you than you think.

    By :
    Rudiger
    - Posted on :
    06/03/2013
  • Sitara; as I was predicting in my last post, nothing's new. I get it. You don't like the idea of autonomy because it's 'ethnic'. You don't like it because you need economic justification. You don't like it because it's against the law (except it isn't. But since you frown on academic research and prefer to use 'only your head', it make take you a while to get there). You don't like it because THEY like it. In the end, you don't like it because you don't like it. Excellent, good for you. Like I said, there's nothing more I want to say to you on this topic.

    Still, you haven't answered the question. What if Szekler Land decides, following a regional referendum, to reject Bucharest's interference? To be a de facto new state? What would you support? Military intervention? What else?

    One of the perils of not wanting or not being able to interpret research and numbers is that our heads aren't particularly smart, without checks and balances. In your case, your head was satisfied with a google-like search on the population of Szekler Land and, predictably, got it wrong. The 60% you're referring to is for the Mures, Harghita and Covasna counties. There are some slight but important territorial differences between the combined extent of those, and the historical Szekler Land, where Hungarians account for about 75% of the population (based on the same official census counts, summed up over the local administrations which are located within the boundaries of the historical region). But oh well. Facts. Numbers. And a relaxed and forward-thinking stance on reforming society. Such complicated matters...

    By :
    Rudiger
    - Posted on :
    06/03/2013
  • I know the original intent of UTN, and also about the leadership of Budai Nagy Antal. UTN served as a de-facto anti-Romanian discrimination, given Romanian majority in Transylvania, and the unwillingness to revoke it – for centuries. Sweet coating it by mentioning its wording (anti-serfs), is like saying slavery had nothing to do with discrimination since it only relates to ALL Africans brought to America.
    Or the Holocaust has nothing anti-Semitic, since among the victims were Christian priests. Tread carefully when, otherwise legit and informative studies, are invoked to place general blame or an inferior status on ENTIRE nations, race. Consequently, I would become very nervous if someone would argue Hungarians are an inferior cast. No matter how many studies are brought as arguments, statistics, etc...
    Diaconescu’s intent was to place all arguments on the table – something all good historians have to do. And in the process, to defuse conflicts.

    By :
    Cristian
    - Posted on :
    07/03/2013
  • Cristian, you're persistently misinformed. And going off the wall by throwing together africans, americans, anti-semitism, the Holocaust and whatnot, doesn't make it any better. "UTN" was simply not anti-Romanian. You're trying to judge events of the past through your current (mis)perceptions, and the result is grossly misplaced. The first documented anti-Romanian interpretation of the treaty comes from the XIX century, when romanian nationalists were rewriting historical events with largess, to suit their interests. In doing so, they made clever use, for the purpose of propaganda, of the 'three nation' syntagma to highlight the hypothesized discrimination against the Romanian 'nation'. And I'm putting that in quotes, since a Romanian nation, with a national identity, simply didn't exist in the 15th century. Which is precisely why Romanian nobles were part of the Hungarian nobility, and the treaty does not make any difference between Romanian and Hungarian serfs. Following the (mostly Hungarian) revolt, the issue was maintaining control over the peasantry. It's serfs able to revolt that they were afraid of, not their ethnic background. They had absolutely no reason to give a damn about that.

    As for the "given Romanian majority in Transylvania" argument, you need to widen your information sources. Or make an attempt at being more objective in interpreting them. Or probably both. There are no definitive information sources for the demographic structure of Transylvania in the XV century. Wide ranging estimates are based on local reports from the clergy, Hungarian nobles and counts within the community of the Saxon burghers. Based on those, estimates of the Romanian population in Transylvania, in the 15th century, put it at 25-30% of the total population. A majority of Romanians was not recorded until the 18th century.

    Finally, stop twisting what I wrote as a clueless politician would do. Blaming "ENTIRE nations", races, calling them inferior casts? I mean... seriously? I explicitly discussed the factual, measurable indicators of societal development and social emancipation. There's a world of difference between them. Calm down, breathe in, read it all again and it will come to you.

    By :
    Rudiger
    - Posted on :
    07/03/2013
  • Perish the thought. I do believe that even Albert Einstein couldn’t have said that his head alone can replace research and study. Studies and research results could be seldom doubted when they are conducted professionally and trustworthily. No one denies that. However, their job is provide numbers and facts, as you said, nothing more. Interpreting these facts and numbers falls to the human brain which is where the truth can be, well, a bit (or more than a bit) embellished as to suit one’s purposes. Granted, there are some domains less likely to be affected by this kind of subjectivity and others simply thriving on half-truths and questionable interpretations. Politics and history are the areas most plagued with subjectivity, in my opinion, so this is why I said that, when it comes about issuing opinions concerning history, I prefer to take, even from the most reputed historians’s work, the established facts while humbly asking them to keep their opinions for themselves. So, no, using “only my own head” is not a valid option but using it at some point while drawing conclusions on some matters won’t be amiss, I think.

    As for your question, I think I hinted at it in my previous answer. Of course I wouldn’t support a military intervention. I have no idea how much my solution would be considered as being politically correct, even in West, but well, since you asked…I would simply withdraw all the Romanian ethnics from the area (those who want to leave, in any case) and I would let the new founded state to enjoy its freedom. There you are; I suppose everyone should be happy now. What did you expect, to call over the EU and NATO forces? That would mean having the Red Army invading us all over again. God forbid it! To drag you to Hague? It could take them decades to find a solution and in the meantime what? As long as our people are well and safe, I don’t care much about the land. After all, no nation was ever promised everlasting life, as an Irish writer used to say, that’s the individuals’ privilege. Perpetual land ownership wasn’t promised, either.

    Well, I feel proud to confess that my head wasn’t satisfied only with a google-like search and I sought to find some researches made on this matter. So the Szekler Land doesn’t encompass those three counties but actually a smaller territory and the Hungarian population is up to 75% in this region. It’s good to know. Therefore, let me rephrase it: would be acceptable to you to ignore the will of 25% of the Szekely Land population concerning any regional matter? Because to me it’s still unacceptable, you know. And, by the way, territorial autonomy actually is against the current fundamental law, according not only to my head, but to the head of those pushing for the Art. 1 to be amended. You’re not going to tell me that Frunda Gyorgy doesn’t know his job, is it?

    By the way, you said some very interesting things about the UTN. If the treaty was concluded between three nations with an established national identity, would it mean that Romanians failed to develop any national identity during more than three centuries, thus being condemned to remain for hundreds of years without any political or civil rights? And do you think you can speak about a “Romanian nobility” when none of them could have kept the Orthodox faith and most likely they bore Hungarian translated names?

    By :
    Sitara
    - Posted on :
    07/03/2013
  • Rudiger:
    By carefully selecting the studies, allowing only some arguments to be admitted into the conversation (Tyrol is ok, but not segregation), moving the goal post in order to allow and favor a certain historical perspective (Romanians have none, because they did not exist vs. Szecklers who's existence could be traced back way back when), and moreover adopting a self-dignified tone when you come across some opposition - strategy called passive-aggressiveness, anything could be proven and anybody can be a winner in the game of solitaire. Because that is what you'll end up playing.
    For the people on the ground, they should worry about their own existence vs. giving in the heated rhetoric, coming from mediocrities. They lived there for centuries and they did really well when they cared more about their assets and neighbors vs. bombastic speeches.
    Minorities should be protected and cherished and should be treated as a part of the whole. It's their country as well and in fact, they are not so very different. In the same time, any minorities need to respect the country's fundamental law. When the country prospers, so they will.

    By :
    CristianChiritescur
    - Posted on :
    07/03/2013
  • Sitara; if your answer to my question is something you truly believe, then you are closer to my position than you think. What I've been saying all along is that when you get to the point that a sizable community, with a strong regional, cultural and linguistic identity, demands a path to self-determination, you have to sit down and talk. Without prejudice or fixed ideas about what the respective community "should" be doing. Because it's the only way forward. No matter what the majority may think or (more or less justifiably) feel on the issue, the only alternative to dialogue and negotiation, in such a situation, is chaos. There are elements of autonomy which should be discussed openly, to work out a compromise:

    1. Regional identity. Romanian politicians have flat-out rejected Szekler Land being one of the projected "super-regions" of the future. This was a costly mistake, and one of the main reasons for the current tensions. For the Hungarians in the region, well aware of past efforts to dilute their representation in administration, this is worse than the current county system. A Szekler region, in the context of administrative restructuring, should be on the discussion table, or tensions will continue to flare.

    2. One of the requirements of the local Hungarians is to have Hungarian recognized as an official language within the region. This is one of the issues touching on the Constitution, but not as directly as you may think. Hungarian is already used in the vast majority of local administrations in the area (based on the 2001 law of public administration). The change from the current situation to accepting Hungarian as a second official language in the region is not insignificant, but it's not dramatic, either.

    3. Recognize, within such region, its cultural identity. If they want to use whatever flag they choose as the regional flag, let them do so. It is regrettable that some Romanians living in the Szekler Land area actively campaign against the display of the Szekler flag. It is just as regrettable when some Hungarians disrespect the Romanian flag. This shouldn't even be an issue. And yes, that includes adjusting relevant legislation to reflect it.

    4. Economic and judicial autonomy. I see this as a long term process, and one which will inevitably be tied to nation-wide progress. This is a topic which is equally relevant for all administrative units in the country, and predicting its development, at this stage, is difficult. We'll see if, how, when, at the appropriate time.

    5. Balance, fairness, and ethnic reconciliation. For those concerned about the rights of Romanians living in a Szekler region, expecting Bucharest to handle the issue is a farce; Romanian politicians have been bartering with Hungarian politicians in political favors for the past 20 years. Bucharest's influence in the region has been limited throughout this time. The way forward is to create a joint commission, made up by moderate Romanian and Hungarian intellectuals, which would have a strong local presence and oversee the transition and protect individual and community rights. What we have now is some Hungarian moderates and some Romanian moderates trying to quiet down the extremists in their respective camps. This doesn't help much with segregation. What we need is an authoritative, respected common voice pushing for progress and resisting rhetoric.

    Now, is all this so hard to digest?

    Cristian: I'm sorry, but I don't really know what to reply to that. You're becoming increasingly vague, in my perception. I haven't moved any goal posts. Yes, I do consider autonomy ("Tyrol is ok") as a completely separate issue from state sovereignty (?!). I think that's common sense. And which studies have I "carefully selected"? It sounds as if you're imagining things for the sake of having an argument. We're quickly losing touch that way.

    By :
    Rudiger
    - Posted on :
    08/03/2013
  • Rudiger – it’s really simple, let me try again.
    Passive aggressive attitudes are identified by the subject’s hostile tendencies to, e.g. bite (in private), but when the oppressed bites back, the subject is adopting the moral high ground and complain publicly. In lame terms, it’s a provocation – the reason the “diagnostic” stands to reason it that it involves deep seated psychological trauma. In many cases, the subject is sick and he needs help.

    Ditto many Hungarians officials’ (or proxy’s) line of arguments – a brief example: celebrating the national day, the 15th of March is a legit Hungarian celebration, the Hungarian nation chooses to observe. Now that particular day is not a festive one in Romania, since it was plagued by actions of terrors directed exclusively against the Romanian population and some Jewish minority. The year is 1848, when Romanians “suddenly” appear in the official census. Where are they coming from, and how they land there, it’s still a mystery for official Hungarian politics/historians.
    That particular event, dear to Hungarians – and I’m not faulting them for it – is incendiary for Romanians, but nevertheless it was chosen to inflame, antagonize and compromise a normal, but stressed, relationship of the Romanian – Hungarian communities. There is no rationalization for those crimes of the past. You would probably agree.
    On the other hand, the Romanian goons, in balancing against the Hungarian bozos, found it useful to pump up the rhetoric in order to get some political capital, normally un-reachable. In other words, and for everyone’s understanding, leave the conversation in the hands of Funar-Orban, and the mutual destruction is assured.

    By :
    Cristian
    - Posted on :
    08/03/2013
  • Cristian, it is simple, but just as vague. Passive aggressiveness has nothing to do with the topic. And, unfortunately, you continue to be misinformed. Which is understandable; objective Romanian historical research is still in its infancy. And the way it still heavily reflects the nationalist bias of the XIX century makes it incredibly appealing to people like you, who like what they read. If you want to talk about 1848 and 'incendiary' events, how about the Romanian massacres at Aiud and Zlatna? Oh, that's right, you won't read much about those in school books, only in a multitude of documents from abroad (and not only Hungarian) and, quite recently, in the works of Romanian academics. You see, political correctness is not worth much if you don't know your history. Or you can't accept it. Or even worse, you are using it to perpetrate indoctrination.

    As for the date of March 15 and the fact that it was chosen "to inflame, antagonize..." that's just plain silly. It's the date of the Hungarian revolution. The Hungarian revolution, per se, had nothing to do with the 'incendiary' events you are referring to. There is no anti-Romanian twist in celebrating March 15th. Now, on the other hand, Romania's national day is the day when Hungarians living in Transylvania were forcibly taken over by another state. And yet Romanian nationalists are up in arms because they don't see Hungarians celebrating it. The amount of ignorance that comes with these double standards is just staggering.

    And yet, history only matters in that it helps us understand and respect each other. And it's just as important to be able to let go of it. I think you should try to make an effort and stop judging Hungarians through your nationalist ideals. Try, for a change, not to take an automatic stance and let the facts and common sense speak to you. You'd be surprised how far that gets you.

    By :
    Rudiger
    - Posted on :
    11/03/2013
  • Rudiger - this is not our first, nor our last disagreement. Nor it's the first time you misunderstand or misquote me.
    The Hungarians have as their absolute right to celebrate the national or whatever holiday whenever they choose. 
    The scars of the past as Aiud or Traznea should be equally known on both sides of the border and placed where they belong: in the past. Not that they balance each other out, or one or other side was "entitled" to respond in kind. No such thing. By exposing that past we take some insurance such events will not happen in the future and there is no justification for whoever is "attracted" by extreme measures. Nobody should forget Sarajevo, and how it backfired against Serbian "patriots".
    Now, after such a lengthy introduction, please let me know how the Hungarian public will react if monuments "celebrating" Aiud massacre will be built in Gyula or Miskoltz? Or in Keleti station? How the Aiud's victims will appreciate narratives such a Romanian "patriot" was good in school or brushed his teeth every day? And therefore he is celebrated for such actions, actions that had nothing to do with butchering Hungarians. Doesn't it seem cruel,unwarranted, inflamatory and unproductive? Consequently any such criticism would be regarded as nationalistic, a proof of ignorance and contrary to the "healing" process.
    I'll try hard not to become irritated by being labeled nationalist or backwarded, when the identical arguments pass as progressive or patriotic.
    Once again - the Romanian majority needs to better accommodate all the minorities, make them feel at home - and they are home already, BUT the same minorities should, like any Romanian citizen, observe the constitution. There is no such thing as super rights, or super minorities, or chosen people, as we all are equal in front of the law.
    A word of warning for the Romanian politicians - to not attempt to hide your corruption, minions, or lack of governing skills behind a cheap "patriotic" stance. You are not patriots if you undermine the rule of law, if you push people around, if you pervert the judicial system and treat your own people with a disgusting disrespect.
     Creating a false enemy as means to hide horrendous governance  is not the answer people deserve.
    Now, all the Rudigers out there, need to keep the Hungarian political class in line and be more empathic to Romanians sensitivities.
    What those Hungarian goons (the offender) are doing is sophisticated, discreet or obvious series of instigations and then wait. It's been also practiced against CE. From the offended part three types of big looser reactions will happen:
    A. No reaction, they (the offender) table it as a victory. 
    B. a shy response - a dignified look is returned (by the offender) and a quick "it's been a misunderstanding" comes as a reply
    C. a strong protest is issued: that is propagated by the (offender) PR machine as frontal attack. A "conciliatory" tone is adopted as nothing has ever happened. It's like producing the injury, salting the wound and then handing over the first aid kit. A Mr. Hyde in Samaritan clothes. 
    A normal Romanian leadership should label all those instigations as very weak try balloons, and use their own PR engine to expose them on the European larger stage. And also advise all Romanian citizens to show restraint. It's just a sample of poor wording, all showing weakness on all sides and poor political skills, especially on the Romanian part.

    By :
    Cristian
    - Posted on :
    12/03/2013
  • Rudiger, I appreciate sincerity and since you spoke openly, I’ll do the same. You’re right, of course, and principially, I agree with you. However, I believe there are some issues deriving from this situation’s particularities, issues which should be approached for, in my opinion, they are fundamental for the success or failure of the whole process. I’m sorry if I got it wrong, but you seem to believe that discussions or negotiations should be carried out between the Romanian Government and Szekler/Hungarian representatives, be they from UDMR or PPMT. If that happens at this point, any negotiation will fail and I’d try to explain what reasons I have to think this way.

    1. The Romanian politicians have rejected Szekler Land as being one of the future regions not because are stupid (they have other kind of stupidity) nor because they are brimming with nationalism or xenophobia towards the Szekler. They care only for one thing: to have “stability” within the country and you and I both know the reasons for this. The last thing they want is Romania to be pointed again by the whole Europe’s accusing finger as it happened, pretty much without reason, last summer. Romania’s potential for quick surprise actions seems to have alarmed the EU officials and pushed them to make recommendations which would have been considered unthinkable for other countries, CVM Report being the most conclusive proof. The Romanian Government is laboring now under close EU surveillance and there’s no compromise they wouldn’t accept in order to keep tensions of any kind at bay, in my opinion. I should add that allowing a region or even an autonomous Szekler Land within Romania wouldn’t be the greatest compromise the government has ever made but if I dare to talk more about that particular topic, I’m going to find myself under the penal law. I can think of only one reason for all the politicians have rejected in the last 20 years any discussion about autonomy or now about regionalization – they know all too well what the majority thinks on this matter and subsequently they seem to prefer risking to have tensions flaring in the Szekely Land than to have them erupting across the whole country. No point in denying it, if the population of Romania would be asked today whether they want or not a Szekely Land region, the vast majority will say no.
    On the other hand, let’s say the Government would be convinced to accept the Szekler’s proposal and have Szekely Land as a region. The law project shall be remitted to the Parliament which, albeit it may seem to have a strong pro-governmental majority, most likely would reject it, for various reasons. However, assuming they would accept it, it will fall again under the Constitution and its revision – for regionalization to be made, the regions have to be mentioned by the fundamental law as territorial-administrative units, thus enabling them to achieve legal personality. If the people know that among the future regions would be a Szekler Land , I think it’s entirely possible for the amendments to the Constitution to be outright rejected by the majority of the Romanians and so the regionalization wouldn’t be made at all, EU directives and potential economic growth be damned. I have reasons to think that all the media would get united on this occasion and it will do in Romania exactly what the German and English media does now with the Romanians and Bulgarians. So if I hear broadcasted as breaking news something along the lines “Vote for the Constitution to be amended and you’ll have a Szekler Land in the heart of Romania !”, I’m not going to be surprised. This message may strike a very sensitive chord with at least 8,5 millions of Romanians. I’m not saying all this to frustrate you but because I think that you may have taken a wrong approach on this issue.
    2. Having Hungarian as an official language in the area doesn’t seem to me as being dramatic. It’s only natural in my opinion to show respect to my colleagues and neighbors by learning their language and using it in their company. Personally I wouldn’t need any law to persuade me to learn Hungarian if I lived in the area; it would be a pleasure and an honor to strengthen ties with other people by crossing the language barrier. The problems begin when people feel somewhat forced to learn the other language and when someone abuses the law as happened in Miercurea Ciuc where the mayor stated that Hungarian is mandatory for all the people working in the local administration. Under the law of public administration, I shouldn’t be required to know Hungarian if I’m part of the administrative staff and I don’t have any contact with the citizens. But, since we’re speaking about bilingual regions, I have knowledge as regards the language issue only about the case of Belgium and, as I think, things aren’t going great there. The French-speaking Walloons are here and the Flemish-speaking Flemings are there, no contact between them, and the supposed bilingual Bruxelles region is virtually French-speaking or rather English, with the foreign EU employees living there and all. Having two official languages pursuant the Belgian model means segregation or enclavisation which I find as being the worst possible thing for both Romanians and Hungarians. But then again, we’re back to amending the Constitution…Were I to decide, I would give equal status to both languages and I would make them both mandatory. I’m perfectly aware of my decision’s potential dangers but I really want to see a Romanian greeting his neighbor in Hungarian to be greeted back in Romanian, just out of respect.
    3. The cultural identity, as for instance, the flag matter… I don’t do this out of spite nor because I’m plagued by nationalism but a regional flag, as regional symbol, has a particular significance. This flag heralds that the Szekler Land belongs only to Szeklers. I apologize for comparing these things, but it’s like Unio Trium Nationum all over again. Romanians are there but de facto they have no social or political rights for, being in minority, they won’t ever have a say on regional affairs as UDMR and PPMT representatives would always outnumber them. As several Romanians living in Covasna and Harghita declared, this is exactly what happens now. This is the only thing I cannot ever accept. There are laws everywhere in this world to protect the minorities’ rights but no law was designed to protect the majority in Romania, at least as far as I know. There are 400.000 Romanians in the counties Covasna and Harghita (I think) and, for their sake, I would rather accept a region (autonomous or not) with a specific legal framework, meant to also insure their rights and preserve their cultural heritage, than a region following the country’s general legal regulations.
    4. No Romanian truly expects the government to handle his/her problems. Least of all those of the people living in Covasna and Harghita. It’s a good idea to have a joint commission to oversee such a process but, frankly, I haven’t seen so far either Romanian or Hungarian moderate intellectuals respected by both sides and nowadays suspicions are running very high. All politicians, be they Romanian or Hungarian, are compromised and they won’t do else than compromise the entire endeavor so it’s better to leave them out of this issue. Another option would be to call over the international organizations for help but, frankly, I deeply distrust any EU involvement and NATO or UN interventions remind me of Kosovo. My own feelings notwithstanding, I don’t think the Romanians would trust any form of foreign intervention and reasons are plenty. Better to keep it as an internal affair but we really need credible, wise and moderate people from both sides. Now, we have only to find them…

    In my opinion, the Hungarians have mostly taken a wrong approach on the autonomy/regionalization issue. The UDMR leaders chose in the last 23 years to cultivate any party/coalition that won the political power in order to gain a favor here, a privilege there, rumors being heard that they did it all for themselves, not for the Hungarian community. They lost thus from the view their main goal, which is, as you said, autonomy. No politician can give them territorial autonomy, only the people can. If they had chosen to cultivate the Romanian people instead of the politicians, maybe things would have looked today far more favorable to their cause. You said in a previous post something about the Romanians living outside Transylvania who presumably are biased against Hungarians upon reading nationalist books and such. It’s not so. Romanians living in Transylvania can always compare things because they know their Hungarians colleagues and friends who are neither extremists, nor law-breaking people. We in the Old Kingdom don’t know you. We only see some Hungarian politicians speaking about Kosovo and massacres, Hungarian mayors threatening Romanians on the language matter, the Romanian flag vandalized and flags displayed on official buildings against the law. We see hostile public gatherings but we cannot read a banner or understand a single thing spoken in Hungarian to get what is that those people want. Budapest has interfered several times, unacceptably so, and these interventions have deepened the general distrustful feelings. Therefore, even when moderate politicians like Borbely Laszlo or Frunda Gyorgy start speaking about the Constitution’s “obsolete nature”, Romanians have already tuned them out, their stance being not an ignorant one but a defensive one. There is also running a strong undercurrent of protectiveness towards the Romanians of Transylvania and I agree with this, as long as it means supporting them whatever they would decide and not making decisions in their place. UDMR is totally compromised in the Romanians’ eyes for reasons of political opportunism and incompetence in the same fashion as Romanian politicians are. PPMT seems to be bound only to awake Iron Guard-like organizations. Romanians are neither ignorant nor truly biased against Hungarians. They only know the dark side of the matter because, in my opinion, nobody cared to show them the good side. Here’s the point where I fully blame the Hungarian politicians and I think they must have kept the same medieval mindset their ancestors had when the Hungarian nobleman ordered and the Romanian serf had to obey. Now as back then, a gentler treatment would have worked wonders, in my opinion. At this point, unfortunately, Hungarian ethnic politicians enjoy the same credibility as the Romanians: zero. Therefore, I think the civil society should intervene and try to change perceptions on both sides. Even sitting down and having a discussion as we’re doing on this thread is a step forward, in my view. Even if there’re some people starting to spew propaganda on forums and blogs, there’s no one to keep an obstinate or xenophobic mantra once they start to use their brains. Indeed, the ice has to be cracked but once done it, I think each side would be amazed to discover what the other has to offer. It may take a while to reach an understanding but it’s the safest and steadiest way to progress. Otherwise, we have enough examples around us (Kosovo, Nagorno-Karabakh) to know that such a situation would harm both people. I read somewhere that some 60 years ago, in a mountain area, Hungarians and Romanians plotted together to pass all the Saxons from their village as either Romanians or Hungarians thus saving them from being deported to Siberia . There’s nothing I wouldn’t give in order to see such understanding.

    P.S. About history…After just finishing reading a fascinating material about the Romanians crimes against Jews, Russians, Hungarians, Americans, Czechs, Bulgarians, Ukrainians and others (did they miss any nation, I wonder?), the author bitterly complaining about Romania not receiving a harsher punishment after WWII, I’m prepared to take full responsibility for everything my people has done. But enough is enough. As much as I can, I won’t let this people to be accused and blamed for things it hasn’t done. I avoided so far any serious study upon Romanian history, choosing instead to focus on Western Europe medieval history. Hence I’m inclined to believe that nothing Romania (or Hungary, for that matter) may have done could be worse than some things done by the great civilized western democracies. I’ll try to seek for the truth, as much as can be found, but from my previous experiences, the waters seem to become less murky only after hundreds of years. For instance, I came across a reference to a Council held by the Hungarian king Andrew II in the year 1291 “cum universibus Nobilibus, Saxonibus, Siculis et….Olachis in partibus Transylvaniae”. If it’s true, then suddenly Unio Trium Nationum has a clear anti-Romanian nature since its very beginning.

    By :
    Sitara
    - Posted on :
    12/03/2013
  • Sitara, I hear you. As I wrote before, we disagree on several aspects, but I understand where you're coming from. I'll comment on your points:

    1. The new region doesn't have to be called Szekler Land. In fact, the main issue which created frictions over the last few months is the prospect of the local Hungarian community being even less represented in the administrative structure of the new region than it is in the current county system. If the governmental coalition would sit down with UDMR and discuss, for example, a super-region formed by the current counties of Harghita, Covasna and Mures (yes, including a sizable Romanian community), there would be progress made. Right now, both camps have taken a hard line towards compromise, and that's what needs to be overcome. The Szeklers have a strong and justifiable sense of local, regional identity. The new super-region encompassing them needs to reflect this, whatever its borders will be.

    2. Language. I completely agree. In fact, as a Hungarian, I am quite disappointed about the Hungarians living in Transylvania who have significant problems communicating in Romanian. Romanians, however, often misinterpret the nature of the issue. Yes, there are Hungarians who don't want to speak Romanian. But their number is small, I would say insignificant at the scale of the Hungarian community. Most Hungarians in Szekler Land who don't speak much Romanian simply show a regrettable lack of adaptation. In the particularly traditional countryside this is hardly surprising; their community life has a clear prevalence over any other priorities. This is hardly a sign of Hungarian extremism. Perceptions hinge on attitudes. Were a Romanian from Iasi travel to Szekler Land and, having politely addressed a shop owner in Romanian, was ignored, I would strongly condemn the latter. But if a cocky Romanian nationalist from Iasi shows up at the same place, demanding perfect knowledge of Romanian fro everyone around, my condemnation would obviously be reversed.

    3. The matter of the flag. I disagree here. And, again, I personally couldn't care less about the Szekler flag. Or any flag, for that matter. You write that the Szekler flag doesn't represent the Romanians living there. If we go down that road, where do we get? Hungarians could say (and some nationalist are saying it) that the Romanian flag doesn't represent them either. To me, the natural progress is clear: whatever the new regional identity will be (in which the Hungarian community is sensibly represented), they should be free to choose their symbols. As far as I know, the Szekler flag has no inherent anti-Romanian meaning. In addition, it would be displayed together with the Romanian flag. Don't tell me that the Romanians who still have a problem with it under these circumstances are reasonable, they're anything but.

    4. The credibility of Hungarian politicians in Romania is pretty much irrelevant, as long as we still have a largely popular anti-Hungarian sentiment in the country. Were that not the case, Romanians would take Frunda Gyorgy over 90% of Romanian politicians. Oh well, Romanian intellectuals would. It's also because of the anti-Hungarian sentiment that I won't judge what's right or what needs to be done by the will of the majority, to which you keep referring to. Its bias and ignorance cannot be overstated (without any ethnic twist). Yes, it's obviously highly relevant and yes, it shapes near-term events. But to tune your own value system to it? Hell no. You're wondering what they would say about Szekler Land in a referendum? Ask them, in a referendum, if they would like Hungarians in Szekler Land to be removed from the country and have their lands and properties distributed among Romanian families who would like to move there. And marvel at the results. Or ask them if anyone should be allowed to amass a fortune of more than 1 million EUR, or the excess should be taxed at 95%. You know where this is going. This is the single biggest challenge of political leadership: gently steer a nation ahead of its time, not revel in its mediocrity.

    5. History. I care about history only to the extent that it helps us learn, improve, and progress. When I first touched on the status of the Romanian society, that's precisely what I had in mind: the ample opportunities and available lessons to push forward, by acknowledging where we're at, instead of lying to ourselves. As for "cum universibus Nobilibus, Saxonibus...”, you are misinterpreting its meaning and context. The mixed ethnic makeup of Transylvania is well documented in (even early)Hungarian documents. No one questioned that. Unio Trium Nationum came from the nobility's desire to protect itself from further peasant revolts. It didn't explicitly include Romanian nobles since they were assimilated into the Hungarian nobility. This is, again, well documented in Hungarian historiography, which covers the probable Romanian origin of some of its leading figures (e.g. Josika Istvan(Stefan), chancellor of Transylvania under Sigismund Bathory).

    Cristian: you mentioned Hungarian atrocities. I pointed out that it doesn't help ignoring the Romanian ones, if you are going that way. Then you go off on Sarajevo and whatnot. I kind of feel you're losing the plot here. Or perhaps you're a professional politician. I can only hope that "all the Cristians out there" will somehow find ways to communicate more effectively. I don't know what else to say.

    By :
    Rudiger
    - Posted on :
    13/03/2013
  • You can not judge the UTM, or any other law by its wording (anti-serfs) or by the historical context (Bobalna), but its EFFECT recorded over time.
    Exploring the meanings without considering the front and center effects is called rationalization. Very useful in the life of a politician.
    And the law's effect was clearly anti-Romanian, since, as you said, there is no record of Romanians until 19th century.
    Changing one's name from e.g. Stefan to Istvan was both an official Hungarian policy and the individual's strategy for upward mobility. Otherwise Stefan wouldn't have existed.

    By :
    Cristian
    - Posted on :
    13/03/2013
  • Cristian, you're grossly misquoting what I wrote. And you know it, don't you? There are plenty of records on Romanian presence in Transylvania. What you didn't have before the 19th century was a Romanian national identity. Hungary developed one long before Romania and, in Transylvania, that translated into the natural assimilation of Romanian nobles within the Hungarian system. There's nothing special or controversial here. A lot of other populations evolved through similar patterns, before they started conceptualizing a nation state. Heck, many Romanian nobles were assimilated into Otoman and Tsarist administrative bodies, even though southern and eastern Romania did not evolve, for centuries, as part of the same 'foreign' kingdom (as Transylvania). The fact that you don't like it, or that you judge the meaning of historical acts through your own misinterpretation of their effects (no, caps don't help) is your own right. It doesn't confer any extra validity to your opinions, though.

    By :
    Rudiger
    - Posted on :
    13/03/2013
  • Misquoting you, or anybody else’s words was not intentional. Your clarifications are welcome.
    Now, how anybody can support the thesis of “natural assimilation”? It sounds more as “voluntary” digestion, given that Stefan the serf, in order to achieve the social status closer to his abilities had to become Istvan, overnight.
    By your own words: “Ask them, in a referendum, if they would like Hungarians in Szekler Land to be removed from the country and have their lands and properties distributed among Romanian families who would like to move there”. Well, if you put such a horrendous statement in a referendum, the vast majority of Romanians would see through the thick fog of nationalism and would reject it soundly. Besides, there is the common law protecting the individual and property, constitution itself, human rights watch, etc… Not even inside PRM, such a gross manipulation of the public opinion would take hold. You wanted to make a point that took the conversation nowhere.
    Also in “Cristian: you mentioned Hungarian atrocities” – in fact I mentioned ALL atrocities. Caps needed.

    By :
    Cristian
    - Posted on :
    14/03/2013
  • Rudiger, it’s heartening to see the beginnings of an understanding, however shy would be they at first.

    The nature of the Hungarian community’s problems as regards regionalization was clear from the beginning. I can understand their fears, with Ceausescu’s policies of purposefully relocating there Romanian workers and all, and I can understand the Hungarian politicians wanting the new region, whatever name it would bear, to remain under their political and social control, which would happen even if the county of Mures is added to the historical Szekler Land. There are several things to be discussed as unfortunately I don’t have the whole picture, namely what kind of responsibilities and competences would be transferred from Bucharest to the regional capitals. As I heard, the counties would be kept as territorial-administrative units. It’s not very clear to me whether only competences concerning central administration would be given to regional capitals or the local administration would be also affected by the regional structure. For, if it’s only about central administration, things wouldn’t change too much as central institutions in Bucharest are to be replaced with similar structures in Brasov or Sibiu. On the other hand, I don’t know if the Hungarian leaders could ever put aside their fear that somehow Romanians would one day outnumber them in the Szekely Land and make them to lose the political and administrative reins in the region. Sadly, as Romanians living there complained, this led them to abuse. Now, I perfectly understand the Hungarian leaders’s legitimate desire to protect their conationals’s regional identity but I want the same thing for my conationals living there. This is why I keep saying that maybe a structure having a specifical legal framework would be the best way to mitigate both fears and abuses, even if at this point some of my conationals may take this as high treason.

    From my point of view, language shouldn’t be an issue. As long as I live in a community where a minority has a strong presence, it’s common sense to learn that minority’s language, however difficult may it be, for being able to at least communicate with the people around me. Flaunting my mother tongue only because it happens to be the country’s only official language is both idiotic and counterproductive. I tried to learn some Hungarian words when I visited Budapest but I couldn’t go further than “köszönöm” and “szivesen”. Even so, it was useful to know them and I could get consoled at seeing the rest of my non-Romanian colleagues (Czechs, Croatians, Slovakians, Slovenians or Bulgarians) being even more clueless than I was. It’s a complicated language, it seems, not only for us but for everyone. However, that’s not an excuse to not at least try to learn it. Of course, I understand that people who lived all their life in a close community and had opportunity to use only Hungarian may not know Romanian and I won’t take it as extremism. On the other hand, I’d be ashamed with anyone who goes there only to flaunt his Romanian language thus endangering the relations between the locals. That’s nothing less than criminal stupidity.

    On the flag matter, I’m afraid that any national flag cannot represent all the minorities living there. Also, it seems that Romanian national insignia does contain the Szekler symbols. Anyway, the flag matter alone isn’t an issue over which to butt heads for, if I have Romanian symbols along with Szekler ones on the regional flag but the Romanians living there would be still ignored in the matter of regional policies, it won’t make me any happier. I won’t take forms over substance. You’re right, of course, the new region’s representatives should be free to choose its symbols but this way we’re back to square one: Hungarian representatives would always outnumber the Romanian ones. I’m not idiot enough to make of a flag the core of this matter, but what if the same thing keeps happening everytime decisions are to be made on behalf of the entire community?

    I have to disagree on the matter of politicians. In my opinion, any anti-Hungarian feeling in Romania is mainly fueled by the UDMR’s leaders political performance. Of course, I won’t say there aren’t historical issues between our people but, as I heard, most of Romanians are seeing the UDMR leaders not as Hungarians who may want the country’s secession but as politicians who allied themselves with whoever was in charge at the moment, regardless of orientation, political doctrine or goals. They see them as those who are as guilty as the local politicians for the country’s ruin. I dare to give the example of Klaus Johannis. Or of Varujan Vosganian. Yes, it’s not quite the same thing but I don’t believe for an instant that Romanians cannot appreciate in the same fashion a performant Hungarian politician. But this is the natural order, in my opinion; first, you show competence and then, when you start speaking about amending the Constitution, I shall listen to you because I trust you. Many of us were dismayed for not having a person like Frunda Gyorgy as a Parliament member. All the Romanians, not only some intellectuals, gave him standing ovations when he spoke publicly against the abuses commited by the government coalition while the rest of his colleagues were looking the way around. People appreciate courage, good intentions, competence and right now Romanians cannot afford to frown upon any competent politician for ethnic reasons.

    On the other hand, I keep referring to the majority’s will because I have to, mainly for pragmatic reasons, not for moral ones. I have to consider the majority’s will since that majority will decide whether the Constitution would be amended or not and the regionalization will be made in the first place. Any road to regionalization, autonomy or changing the language status goes through the Constitution and I don’t think there could be a regulation (be those issued by international institutions or international court rulings) that could be applied bypassing the Constitution. If we’re talking about a democratic system, that is. Otherwise, let’s call it a dictatorship and be done with that. Furthermore, fundamental rights cannot be subjected to a referendum. Those should be protected at any cost, even at the cost of the majority’s will. Otherwise, what would happen if the German or British citizens are asked about what should be done with the Romanian and Bulgarian immigrants? But I’m inclined to agree with Cristian and believe that the majority of Romanians would not condone such a criminal action, if anyone was ever tempted to try it. But this is not a fundamental right, as least from the legal point of view. This referendum shall be held this year and its results will influence all the issues we’re speaking about. And of course I wouldn’t tune my own value system to the majority’s will. But I have to respect it, even if I don’t agree with it. Each of us found himself/herself at some point in minority and consequently forced to respect the majority’s will. As for the politicians’ role, people don’t trust them, plain and simple, and I for one don’t think they can do much to direct this nation towards progress. On the contrary. I believe that any durable change could begin only from the bottom going towards the top, not the other way around.

    I completely agree with you on the matter of history. However, for Romanians could be a somewhat difficult matter due to our unique capacity to react on impulses instead of taking time to rationalize things. Forms of manipulation or nationalism are hardly uncommon in the Western history; I found them not only in textbooks but in historical works authored by some respected and high regarded professionals. The nationalism of the French writers of the 19th century drove me crazy. I had to read Belgian historians to find out what did the French troops in Belgium during the French Revolution. I have yet to hear from a Austrian about the times when Vienna was conquered and occupied by the Hungarian king Matyas Hunyadi. On this basis, I cannot be too surprised or scandalized that Romanian historians did the same and arranged things to suit their purposes. Of course, it’s still a wrong thing to do but we cannot take a sledgehammer and attack all we knew so far considering everything a bunch of lies. And we cannot consider ourselves a race of “Untermenschen” because we did things that other countries had done long before us. Things should be carefully assesed and put in their rightful place, somewhere between “Romanians have never harmed anyone” and “Romanians are Europe’s most ignoble race and we deserve to be always humiliated and punished”. As regards the relations between our people, as you said, the most important thing is to acknowledge the mistakes made by both sides and resolve to not repeat them. I agree wholeheartedly with you on this point.

    Unfortunately, I only found a mention about “cum universibus Nobilibus…” without details about the context of that Council, but, even so, I cannot conclude other that in the 13th century there was a Vlach/Wallachian/Romanian population/nation significant enough as to be mentioned along with the other populations/nations and, by contrast, Unio Trium Nationum, being a union of the privileged classes, had omitted the Romanians simply because they weren’t allowed to have upper classes, unlike the other nations. In the light of “cum universibus..”, I cannot accept as argument for the Romanians’ exclusion from UTN that they hadn’t developed a national identity until the 15th century.If the Romanians had enough national identity to be recognized as such in the 13th century, they surely couldn’t have lost it in the 15th century.

    By :
    Sitara
    - Posted on :
    15/03/2013
  • Sitara; you've nuanced your earlier position quite a bit on several issues and we have a lot of common ground now.

    But on regional identity, I believe that the starting point on any decision for the future is to simply recognize the essence of Szekler Land, no matter what the final decision may be. The Romanian minority living there doesn't change the fact that the region itself is as particular as any other in the country. So when one discusses new administrative units, it reeks of intolerance not to include it in the discussion with the same consideration that other historical regions (for which mayors are actively campaigning) receive. As for the rights of Romanians living there, I really see this as a Romanian issue. Notice that the rights we are debating for the Hungarian community are all rights that Romanians are guaranteed by law; it is up to the state to ensure that increased self-determination of an ethnic minority doesn't infringe on the rights of citizens belonging to the dominant group. I believe that the region should retain it's territorial identity (without having to strictly reflect ethnic communities, as with the historical Szekler Land area); have Romanian and Hungarian as official languages; allow the region to choose its symbols (just as with any other region); be governed by legislation that explicitly addresses discrimination on both sides; have a level of fiscal and judicial autonomy that will be crystallized medium-to-long term (same as with other regions) . I don't think any of this would negatively impact on Romanians living there. Just as Hungarians in Romania need to accept and respect their Romanian citizenship, so do Romanians from Szekler Land need to respect the centuries-old identity of the community they live in. To me, this is the only way forward. I emphasize again that what Romanians need to understand is the special nature of Szekler Land. If groups of Hungarian villages from the center of Transylvania (and there are still many) would demand similar levels of autonomy, I wouldn't see the point; their self-determination needs to be effective at local level, but their regional identity is a Transylvanian one. But Szekler Land is different. And that difference should be respected. In fact, this is why I was pointing out in one of my earlier posts that I see the issue as being common among historical regions; I would also like to see a Maramures region, instead of having its unique traditions diluted within an arbitrary administrative entity.

    We will have to disagree on anti-Hungarian feelings in Romania. Don't get me wrong, I wish I agreed with you and Cristian. But I've simply seen and was made aware of too many instances of blatant intolerance to be able to agree. I don't think it's generalized. But it's common and pervasive. It often manifests itself in very subtle forms. See, for example, your early replies here (both yours and Cristians). You felt like posting a reply to a quite balanced and neutral article. Our discussion has progressed a great deal since those early jabs. But your initial post was akin to me deciding to reply to the article with a jab at Romanians (don't know, think of something trivial, like the fact that Szekler Land has been part of Hungary for far longer than Romania). I felt no need to do that. Doesn't it make you wonder why you did?

    History; as I wrote before, the wave of revisionist nationalism from the 19th century was widespread. Of course it started in Western Europe, with France being routinely attributed a trend-setting role. Hungary also excelled in it. The difference with Romania, however, is that, unfortunately, too much of the discourse of the time has persisted until today. If you look up French modern historiography (or Hungarian, for that matter), it reflects very little from the politically charged agendas of the past. It's simply research, with sound, transparent methodology. In Romania there's an ongoing fight between old-school (read, ex communist) academics holding key positions and the new generation, which embraces fact-driven research. And much of the population continues to be exposed to the same fairy tales that were concocted 150 years ago.

    As for your last paragraph, the difference is mostly semantics. When I say national identity, I mean it in the way it is commonly understood in history books: a concept of people being part of the same nation based on their cultural and linguistic identity and at least a desire to belong to the same state. Under this interpretation, even revisionist Romanian historians were narrowing its origins to the 16-17th century (Mihai Viteazu). We know that this is false; up until the 19th century, the regional concept was dominant within Romanian communities. This is only normal - after all, the three main historical regions had often taken different paths in history, which often included inter-wars. But it's best reflected in Romanian documents at the time of the 1848 revolution (letters from its main leaders) which capture the difficulty and tedious process of forming and championing for a national identity. As an example, in this context, would you say that the Roma have a national identity? I'm not sure.

    By :
    Rudiger
    - Posted on :
    16/03/2013
  • Roman citizenship was quintessential to the existence of the Roman Empire. And with that the Empire identity followed.
    It is both true and regrettable anti-Hungarians feelings exist, well outside of the litigious areas. It is also true such sentiments are growing and enhanced on purpose during stressful times, when the political class seems to run out of ideas. On the other side of the border, that is exactly what happens today with politics played inside Hungary – dire economics, huge debt in Swiss currency, frustrated population – no acceptable solutions at home, all good reasons to stir the pot in the neighboring countries: Serbia, Slovakia and Romania. Suddenly an all-out-love to Hungarians abroad emerges, conveniently forgetting about their own citizens and the duties of governance.
    Also anti-Romanian acts are happening too – isolated, but amplified by the lap dog media. It happened to a friend of mine, last summer when on a visit to a tourist shop in Szekler Land, all the fliers were in Hungarian and English – and the young lady pointing out: “you are in Hungary now!”. If you are Romanian, your blood pressure rises; and if you’re Hungarian you feel uneasy. This is not a European message to carve up territories, at will and without due process. Just because you “feel” you are entitled? Historical justifications never trump the rule of law.
    That is not to say that this push to autonomy (and then what?), is not legit, coming from a population sick and tired of these 2 decades of leadership. Covasna and Harghita are, against what has been mentioned before, the poorest counties in spite of natural beauties and a smart and educated work force. The bad news travels fast and what comes out of those two counties is tension, potential unrest – who would be willing to invest in those places? Of course, not Hungary which has troubles of its own. And on top of it, the assault on the Constitution (in both countries). Everyone is frustrated. For the wrong reasons.
    As far as most of us here learned history in school, given the events of the 19th century followed by the dark days of communism, a constant game of hocus-pocus, information laced with propaganda, was fed on all of us. “Romanians were always victims and disadvantaged” we were told, plus there was no sense of personal or historical responsibility emerging from practical anything. On the Hungarian side, the sleight of hand was manifested by the Romanian national identity appearing and disappearing at will, census data being falsified, or at least liberally interpreted, in order to prove the high mark message: UTN was not an anti-Romanian act. No wonder in such atmosphere, the other side was a culprit. That is why, all the massacres of the past need to be exposed, so nobody can claim the Immaculate Conception. That is why, for educated Hungarians, recognizing the true effect of UTN, and firmly placing it in the past, is essential for any reconciliation. For Romanians, the burden is even more difficult.
    So, if autonomy is desired and is given to them, let them have it. The burden of proof will be for Szeklers/Hungarians, to make the Romanians nationals living inside that land happier than the others outside. As long as the place will prosper, it will be even better for Romania as a whole – a richer tax base.

    By :
    Cristian
    - Posted on :
    16/03/2013
  • Cristian, my last idea was referring to the Roma/Gypsy community, not the Romans.
    I generally agree with everything that you wrote. But you see where the difference is: Hungarians want the Constitution and relevant legislation to better reflect their community status. None of the changes they want have anything to do with the fact that some Romanians are discriminated against in Szekler Land. If we're talking about serious/significant discrimination, it will be just as illegal then as it is now - that's why I was writing that it's a matter of enforcing the law. As a Hungarian/Romanian who grew up in Transylvania, I found it funny that someone in Szekler Land would say tell a Romanian that he was in Hungary. I'm sure most local Hungarians would laugh at that. It's definitely not a representative perception in the region.

    I also agree with you regarding the economy of the region. There are some significant factors contributing to the current state of affairs (which the two counties share with other poor counties from the Carpathian region - there isn't much difference between the Szekler counties and Bihor, Hunedoara, Bistrita-Nasaud or Neamt, in terms of average wages) but ultimately, regional leadership hasn't been stellar, to put it mildly. But I see that as a further argument for sorting out the ethnic representation issues, autonomy and whatnot; once we're over that, we can start talking about the genuinely important things.

    By :
    Rudiger
    - Posted on :
    16/03/2013
  • I agree - that incident was laughable, real and quite rare. In many cases I went to Transylvania, I only met courtesy and good will - from everyone. So, Rudiger I understand your love for your home.
    It all has to start from the local economy. Have i.e. Covasna become a thriving economy and suddently it will be able to talk from a position of influence and need to development. Otherwise, it will be the cry baby of the region. It's doable with so many God given natural beauties.
    You know too well that negotiating from a frustrated position will take you that far. And, moreover, let's spare each other those bed time stories about national identity which conveniently disappeared and reappeared, or, on the other side, Ceausescu's "patriotism" in diluting the Hungarian composition in those 3 counties. What was done was done. The French and the Germans buried the hatchet. Why not two much poorer nations couldn't? That need is even more pressing. Nobody would like to see Russia "come to the rescue". 1956 and 1968 were enough.
    What people generally need is a sense of security and an environment where they will be free to pursue their happiness. The new authority, if it will exist under a form or another, needs to produce guarantees - and now we recycle through what Sitara was saying in the beginning, guarantees provided to the Romanians minority they will be protected and conferred with rights the Hungarians are asking now for themselves. Those Romanians are home. They are in no shape or form tolerated or second class citizens,as recently presented in educational supplement circulating in the Szeklers Land. See:
    http://www.gandul.info/news/manualul-revoltator-dupa-care-se-preda-ist%20o%20r%20i%20e-in-transilvania-jigneste-toti-romanii-10667117
    I can not validate the article above.
    And there, Houston, we have a problem - UDMR and everyone else requesting autonomy, they talk about me, me, me....

    By :
    Cristian
    - Posted on :
    17/03/2013
  • Rudiger, I think it’s better to address first those issues we can easily agree on and then tackle those harder to approach. Yes, I did nuance my position, for several reasons, as well as for the fact that my first posts were mainly anger driven reactions. My opinions might have been correct and legally based but the manner in which I chose to present them definitely it wasn’t. I apologize again for any offensive comment, acknowledging that choosing to throw insults or, well, even clothing pieces of truth in an offensive garb is not going to take us anywhere. On the contrary, it’s only bound to make things worse.

    On the matter of regional identity, there’re several things making me believe that the Government may not consider this factor for any region, not only for the Szekely Land . I’m talking here about the current project of regionalization, keeping in mind that local politicians have their own agenda and any attempts of swaying the Government as regards the regions or the future regional capitals are deeply rooted in their local interests, which I find legitimate, of course, as long as they act on behalf of the local people. Speaking about the current project, I personally don’t like at all that I’m going to form a region only along with Ilfov County . We’re not an island here in Bucharest and I feel somewhat that my ties with Muntenia (which is actually encompassing Bucharest and historically it always did) would be severed. This is why I think that the Romanian Government’s projects are not based on ethnic intolerance but simply on some kind of pragmatic reasons, I suppose mainly economic and financial reasons, having little to do with regional identity. In other words, they’re going to deal us the same treatment, Romanians and Hungarians alike, and this way we will be all equally discriminated. I should add that Romania wouldn’t be the only country to form regions for other reasons than regional identity; it also happened elsewhere; for example, France crammed together Roussillon and Languedoc not taking into account that those two regions have a quite different history and a quite different heritage. Yes, of course, you’re right, a certain region’s particularities should be respected but, as you said, in the case of South Tyrol , economic benefits came only second to social and cultural ones. It’s entirely possible that, at this point, the Government may play the economic card, sacrificing anything else in the process.

    As for the rights of the Romanians living there, in my opinion, they formally exist but, beyond that, I cannot say much more. That’s another reason for I have to nuance my position: I’m not among those Romanians. I’m not even Transylvanian and I should always remember that I’m only in the second line, not in the first. As such, I have to rely on statements given by Romanians living in Harghita or Covasna and on information provided by the media (Romanian media only because most of us don’t have a clue about what the Hungarian media may say). It’s not the best way to form an opinion but I have to take what I can. As I understood and said before, there’s a part of the matter that cannot be touched by the Government – the majority in the County Council enabled to adopt decisions as regards county affairs. Romanians living there have said that, as Hungarian representatives are always outnumbering them, any Romanian cultural or social initiative is always rejected. As long as there aren’t any laws to guarantee the majority’s rights in the areas where it’s in minority, the same fashion as happens for instance with ethnic minorities, the Government can’t do anything in this respect. On the other hand, any attempts made by the central administration to enforce the law (I’m not talking only about the flag matter but, for instance, about a case popularized in the media about a month ago having to do with the commercialization of several homemade products bearing only Hungarian written labels) was received with increased hostility, accusations of discrimination and even with threats. Many Romanians are getting increasingly angry with the Government’s inability to apply the law in several cases and many are accusing the Government of laxness and even of treason (in the light of past political agreements made with the UDMR leaders and such). Personally, I have reasons to believe that a central authorities’ intervention would do more harm than good, mainly because I’m acutely aware that the Romanian administration can jump in a single instant from idleness to unduly sternness. So this is why I dare to think that Szekler Land cannot be in the same position as Maramures; in my opinion, a distinct legal framework for Szekely Land may be an option even if this goes rather towards federalization than towards regionalization. Or something in between, I don’t really know. Yes, I keep saying the same things but I feel like we really need to address these particular issues.

    As regards anti-Hungarian feelings, I have to tread again on unfamiliar ground. We don’t have a Hungarian community here so I cannot say that because I never saw anyone actually taking an anti-Hungarian stand, it can’t be happening. As regards virtual propaganda and exchanges of insults and offensive comments on forums and blogs, I can say that I’ve seen both anti-Hungarian and anti-Romanian propaganda and I won’t take either of them as truly showing anti-Hungarian or anti-Romanian feelings. I’m firmly convinced that both Romanians and Hungarians are able to see the difference between the virtual space and the real one. And those who really can’t are in minority, on both sides. As for my first reactions, I have to confess that an American study about Hungary-Romanian relations published by EU’s news website felt like seeing a red flag waved before my eyes. Many Romanians feel themselves lately backed into a corner by EU institutions and other EU member states and at least from me, this prompted a violent reaction which, as usually happens, hit the wrong target. Cristian had from the beginning a reasonable position. I was spoiling for a fight.

    You see, there’s happening a very interesting thing concerning history. You’re absolutely right, the nationalistic wave was highly represented in France of the 19th century and likely to spread to other countries, Romania being particularly susceptible to French influence. But what happens now? I have a special interest for a series of events occurred in France (more or less) over several decades of 15th century. Historians of the 19th century made me abhor French historiography with their bombastic manner to describe and interpret any event; for example, an invasion of France happened in those times was getting the proportions of the USSR’s Great Patriotic War, with all the praises liberally poured upon the brave, the valiant, the whatnot patriot defenders who defended the great united French nation against the miserable invaders upon which those “historians” heaped equally liberally all kind of expletives and such, taking great delight to describe all the atrocities committed on French soil. What they forgot to even mention were the atrocities committed at the same time by the French army on what is today Belgian soil, which happened to be far worse than those occurred in France . Then I read the work of a contemporary French historian regarding the same period. The style was completely changed, no trace of nationalism or propaganda whatsoever, a moderated tone was employed to describe most events and interpretations were delivered in a neutral manner. Yet the French atrocities committed on Belgian ground, mentioned first by Flemish writers, then by Belgian ones, were still missing. I may add that in the 19th century there was still reigning a Habsburg Emperor and the historians of those times might have thought to avoid remembering him that some parts of France belonged at one time to the Habsburgs, although the possibility of someone laying a claim on these territories was practically inexistent. But what kind of reasons could have had French contemporary historians to hide France ’s own wrongdoings? This is why I’m somewhat cautious about contemporary historiography and I believe that blatant and bombastic nationalism might have been replaced with something far more insidious. It remains to be seen what happened with Romanian historiography. I mean, I’d like to see it for myself.

    Ah, and because Cristian mentioned the Szekler history textbook, I have on this the same feeling I had regarding the Szekler gathering of last week: I’m watching without being able to comprehend a thing. I mean, many of us were wondering last week what is that Tokes Laszlo might have said about Trianon since the provided translations were quite interpretable. In my opinion, he could have spared himself and his cause some troubles if he had spoken also in Romanian. I don’t trust him even as far as I can throw him but he deserves like everyone else to be given the presumption of innocence. As for the textbook, I’d like to read it for myself, knowing it could make a great tool for manipulation purposes, by both Hungarian and Romanian side. I have again to settle for indirect information or to see some incendiary titles in the Romanian newspapers. But, if it’s indeed written that Romanians were the Szeklers’ “servants” (here seems to be another translation problem), I don’t see where would be the offense. We were serfs, where is the problem with that? My great-grandparents too were serfs in Wallachia and they weren’t happier to serve under a Romanian landlord than the serfs having a Hungarian/Szekler master. On the contrary, I’d be proud to have as ancestors people who managed to overcome their humble condition and become eventually free. On the other hand, if the textbook took care to point out only Romanian wrongdoings, omitting those committed by others, obviously I cannot condone this. A balanced view on history, yes, including Romanian mistakes and crimes, but not a view to make us hate each other or, God forbid, to make us kill each other again.

    By :
    Sitara
    - Posted on :
    18/03/2013
  • A brief note, because I have to solve my own problems vs. dealing with the complications of international conflicts  or the perception of those.
    Bucharest is the second world largest city (after Budapest) hosting a Hungarian minority. All of them attracted by opportunities, members of various professions in more than a hundred years. Probably someone better equipped with more information will write down their history in Romania’s capital. Today they call the place, home. They call themselves “ardeleni” although most of them were born and raised as I was, in Bucharest.
    Coming from Hungarian and Romanian governments, priming the propaganda machine is cheap and irresponsible. Especially coming from the Hungarian government, in deep trouble today from its own constituency, because it does not solve anything, as far as Hungary is concerned - they showed repeatedly a blatant lack of consideration, bordering disgust to “ardeleni” in general. Almost the same with the central Romanian government – they use each incident as a diversion, although they do bear the burden of governing.
    The true important people are the ones living there day to day. As it happens today, Hungarian language schools (sponsored by the tax payer money) on all levels are reasons to make the Hungarian minority happy – the ethnic character is preserved and it will be continued. However, politicians as Tokes (great man, bad politician) view the “danger” of losing it. As if you can stop Istvan the Szekler to move to Barcelona and his church might not be able to preserve his character unless they build a church on Las Ramblas. Nice, but very bad economics.
    And this is the core of the problem: all these normal people elevated to “politicians” perceive their constituents as captives to the official narrative. When 3 millions of Romanians voted with their feet and decided to live elsewhere (as Rudiger and myself), listening to those bozos is beyond ridiculous. Borderline stupid.

    By :
    Cristian
    - Posted on :
    18/03/2013

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