Wałęsa: Europe is in need of solidarity 

Former Polish President Lech Wałęsa is the historic leader of the Polish anti-communist movement 'Solidarność'.

To read a shortened version of this interview, please click here. 

To read the full version of the interview, which also touches upon intricacies of internal Polish politics, please click here  (Polish only). 

There is a diplomatic 'dance' around Russia. The EU's high representatives, led by French President Nicolas Sarkozy, are trying to induce Moscow to observe international law. How would you comment? 

The first episode of this ploy failed. Russia showed itself unable to draw any conclusions from the past, and persisted in solving problems in the old way. This caused outrage throughout the entire world, and Russia also lost. The EU lost, because it was badly organised and divided into factions. The USA showed its impotence; it was unable to do anything. Then, when all parties saw their mistakes and had a better idea of what to do, who did it better and faster became important. In the second episode, we can all win and make the world better. So let's do it. 

What should be the attitude towards Russia? We see an indulgent Berlusconi, a moderate Sarkozy and a hardline Kaczyński. How should one speak to Putin in times of Russian defiance and high gas prices? 

Europe can be a partner in the relationship with Russia if it is coherent. And if it is too weak, it should learn the lessons of Polish 'Solidarity' and become bigger and gather more support. Together with the Americans, we can talk with Russia as equals. 

You have huge experience of talking to the Russians. You managed to 'move' Poland from east to west.

But I did not use the classical arguments. I caused a situation whereby if someone said "no" to me, he made himself look ridiculous […] Today's diplomats cannot find the right language. If Russia said that it would shoot people in Georgia, I would tell Putin: "My dear, we will go in front of the cameras of the entire world and we will say that you are a bandit, because you want to fire at people." I would do it and one has to act in this way. 

Mikheil Saakashvili had the same dream of moving his country to the West. 

He is an irresponsible politician and I don't have a good opinion of him. I understand him but one must see the things to come and one cannot afford to lose. But he lost and brought the entire world into this strange situation. I admit that he is right [to say] that Russia is evil. I know it, too. He should not have acted that way, without any preparation. He got himself provoked; he took the bait after Russian provocation. As an experienced politician, he should not do that and that is what I claim. 

Should we fear Moscow like in the old days? 

No. One could have been afraid of it at the end of the twentieth century, when we lived in times of division, when interests were different. In the twenty-first century, we live in times of IT products, computers and cars. We become consumers and nobody wants to get rid of consumers, not even Russia, because they will not buy its exports. We are moving towards times of intellect, globalisation and IT technologies, towards an era of different ways of solving conflicts. Old solutions, like in case of Georgia, do not pay. But Europe must be in a solidarity mood and prove this to Russia. 

If you were still the president of Poland and your country held the EU presidency, how would you talk to Russia? 

On two fronts: I would talk to Russia and at the same time build consensus concerning some subjects in Europe. And to solve other problems I would cooperate with the US or maybe with someone more. It would give me power in my talks with the Russians. Not in order to combat them but to show them that the world professes other values; to show them that they are acting in the wrong way and that they can lose. Russia only listens to strong partners, so one needs power originating from European and world solidarity. 

Russia is also not afraid to use the 'energy weapon' on which we are dependent. 

That is why we have to think of getting rid of this dependence and press scientists to find something very fast. This situation is very uncomfortable and it will not teach Russia the culture of behaviour. Otherwise anyone who possesses such potential in raw materials would blackmail us. To address this situation we need unity, we need to be harmonious. If we are divided, Russia will beat us. 

A good example of European solidarity could prove to be its policy towards Belarus. How would you talk with Lukashenko? 

I know Lukashenko, we have spoken on several occasions and I even understand him. I realise why he acts in that way. He can see the impotence of the West, of the Union, on which he cannot rely, so he tries to gain as much as possible from his relationship with Russia and will turn to the Union later when it is ready to help.