EU envoy apologises for calling Macedonians ‘Slavs'

I really can't get comments like these...Our real history is that we are an independent country since 1991, a country in which I proudly live and work. A country with mixed tradition and beliefs. However, a one different from the countries that around us. So if someone who lives in the US, feels Bulgarian...right one brother. However, don't involve me in your group. Cause that is not my history. Therefore, don't speculate if I am a Greek, Bulgarian, Serbian, Albanian or an Eskimo...I am a Macedonian. However, a contemporary Macedonian, not an ancient one:)

actually greeks wouldnot ask for an apology for being called greeks because they want to be called greeks and they are called greeks. :-)) though you can see that they founded a civilization some thousands years ago in that land but not much work has been done since then except for lying about the neighbors and offering the domestic land to other countries as military base and as free market.
once you get into that club of popular kids, your sins will be forgotten as in the example of Greece - but not limited to Greece. Greece haven't seen any consequences yet for their massacres/cleansing committed on populations in their north, in Thessalonikka, in Crete, in Cyprus, in Western Turkey during the last century.

Someday they will understand our history and they will see that Greece is wrong about Macedonia. It just need time for those things. Macedonian people were fighting within centuries to get their freedom and this is just another battle to get our right to be called like we Macedonians want.

The former Yugoslav republic is an an example of politcal correctness gone crazy. Their apologists...including some that claim to support "human rights".... have been revealed as bigots now that they dishonestly pretend not to notice their suddenly identity quick change into 'descendents of ancient Macedonians". (to hide their shame for supporting them)

"The creation of the Macedonian nation, for almost half of a century, was done in a condition of single-party dictatorship. In those times, there was no difference between science and ideology, so the “Macedonian” historiography, unopposed by anybody, comfortably performed a selection of the historic material from which the “Macedonian” identity was created. There is nothing atypical here for the process of the creation of any modern nation, except when falsification from the type of substitution of the word “Bulgarian” with the word “Macedonian” were made." (Denko Maleski, former Minister of foreign affairs of FYROM from 1991 to 1993 in an interview to FYROM newspaper Utrinski Vesnik)

"This (US) Government considers talk of Macedonian "nation", Macedonian "Fatherland", or Macedonia "national consciousness" to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece" - US State Department Dec, 1944 (Foreign Relations Vol. VIII Washington D.C. Circular Airgram - 868.014/26)
http://tinyurl.com/nel46d

The truth is that FYROMians are Slavs inhabiting the northern part of the region of Macedonia and not the actual Macedonia which is the Greek province of Macedonia, like it or not. It's just under recent heavy brainwashing from their nationalistic government (VMRO-DPMNE) that they want to be Macedonians and nothing but Macedonians and don't give a s**t about their southern neighbours, real Macedonians, ethnic Greeks.

Stefan Verkovich:

If someone today should ask the Macedonian Slav "what are you?" he would be immediately be told: "I am Bulgarian" and would call his language "Bulgarian".

("Folk Songs of the Macedonian Bulgarian", Vol. 1, 1860)

Krste Misirkov, Bulgarian philologist and publicist, considered a national hero in FYROM:

Some will ask why I speak of breaking away from the Bulgarians when in the past we have even called ourselves Bulgarians and when it is generally accepted that unification creates strength, and not separation.("On the Macedonian Matters", Sofia 1903)

And, anyway, what sort of new Macedonian nation can this be when we and our fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers have always been called Bulgarians?("On the Macedonian Matters", Sofia 1903)

We are more Bulgarian than those in Bulgaria. ("On the Macedonian Matters", Sofia 1903)

We speak a Bulgarian language. ("On the Macedonian Matters", Sofia 1903)

Edith Durham, British writer, artist and traveller:

I have even met people who believe there is a special race which they call 'Macedonian', whose 'cause' they wish to aid. The truth is, that in a district which has no official frontiers, and never has had any stable ones, there are people of six races, who, as we have seen, all have causes to be considered [...] I shall speak only of the part I have stayed in- the districts of Lakes Ochrida and Prespa. Here there are Greeks, Slavs, Albanians, and Vlahs. Of Turks, except officials and such of the army as may be quartered on the spot, there are few. The Albanians, I believe, are all Moslem. Should there be any Christians they would be officially classed as Greeks. A large part of the land near Lake Prespa is owned by Moslem Albanians as "chiftliks" (farms). ("The Burden of the Balkans", 1905, p. 76)

Ferdinand Schevill, American professor of history:

Although in some areas (of geographical Macedonia) the various groups were all inextricably intermingled, it is pertinent to point out that in other sections a given race decidedly predominated. In the southern districts, for instance, and more particularly along the coast, the Greeks, a city people given to trade, had the upper hand, while to the north of them the Slavs, peasants for the most part working the soil, held sway. These Slavs may properly be considered as a special “Macedonian” group, but since they were closely related to both Bulgars and Serbs and had, moreover, in the past been usually incorporated in either the Bulgar or Serb state, they inevitably became the object of both Bulgar and Serb aspirations and an apple of discord between these rival nationalities. As an oppressed people on an exceedingly primitive level, the Macedonian Slavs had as late as the congress of Berlin exhibited no perceptible national consciousness of their own. It was therefore impossible to foretell in what direction they would lean when their awakening came; in fact, so indeterminate was the situation that under favourable circumstances they might even develop their own particular Macedonian consciousness. ("History of the Balkans": From the Earliest Times to the Present Day, 1922, reprint 1991)

Gyordan Veselinov, FYROMian ambassador in Canada:

We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian… There is some confusion about the identity of the people of my country.

(Ottawa Citizen, 24 February 1999)

"Neither were the locals Bulgarian nor was their language Bulgarian. They were just Macedonians."

R.A. Reiss, Rapport sur la situation des Boulgarophones et des Musulmans dans les nouvelles provinces Grecques (Lausanne, 1915).

Thanks Gandeto

Just a short reply for the The Cincinnatian....to present him with some facts...
Yes some people have different oppinions, as I stated, but do not mix believes with facts.
If all of the people in the world think that The Macedonian language is a Greek language, why there are 45 departments of the Macedonian language on many famous universities in the world, which consist of many thousands of PhD professors? And why the Greek state published this Abecedar in 1925, but just remember...The Greek State!!!
http://www.scribd.com/doc/23738292/ABECEDAR-1925-Makedonski

For some more read, and I wish to thank him ....Neil Johnson, above!

And in order to clarify why the Greeks want to have as theirs (e.g. Alexander The Macedonian) their biggest enemy in the history, read the classics history books and you'll find out...without him You're worth less than a tin coin! On the other hand, trough history, we the Macedonians have always maintained our moral high grounds and always kept our hands clean! The last example was the end of the WW2 when after helping the Greeks to kick out the Germans our brothers in Greece destroyed 1000 Macedonian villages, killed more than 200000 Macedonians and banished to exile (never to return) 20000 children.....Thanks, I know who the Greeks are, and who are the Macedonians!
Recently some details have emerged that will show that the Greek state was involved in financing the NLA (The albanian terorist-paramillitary army in Macedonia) in order to further their efforts of destruction of Macedonians...this will further my facts about the Greeks in general, if the rise of neo-nacizam in Greece does not!

What do you expect from an EU official? most don't know their arse from their elbow in the field in which they represent the EU. Bunch of incompetents all of them, MEP's, EC's, the lot.

@Angela Discouri

Q1: "If people of Republic of Macedonia are identified with the prefix "slavs" then it begs the question: why is it that all other Slavic nations do not use that same prefix for themselves? Why is it a precondition for the people of Macedonia?"
A1: Because other Slavs don't have to disambiguate from real Macedonians, but you have to. There are 3,000,000 real Macedonians, ethnic Greeks, in real Macedonia, Greece, you know...

Q2: "if ancient Macs were Greeks (wishful thinking, ofcourse) then we must ask: why did Alexander the Great dismissed his supposedly own Greek troops in Asia? Why he did not use them in any of his major battles?"
A2: Alexander I of Macedon, king of Macedon from 498 BCE to 454 BCE:

Men of Athens. In truth I would not tell it to you if I did not care so much for all Greece; I myself am by ancient descent a Greek, and I would not willingly see Greece change her freedom for slavery. (From the speech of Alexander I of Macedon when he was admitted to the Olympic games, Herodotus, "Histories", 9.45)

Alexander the Great, king of Macedon, 356 BCE - 323 BCE:

Your ancestors came to Macedonia and the rest of Greece and did us great harm, though we had done them no prior injury. I have been appointed leader of the Greeks, and wanting to punish the Persians I have come to Asia, which I took from you. (Alexander's letter to Persian king Darius in response to a truce plea, as quoted in "Anabasis Alexandri" by Roman historian Arrian, Book II, 14, 4)

Youths of the Pellaians and of the Macedonians and of the Greek Amphictiony and of the Lakedaimonians and of the Corinthians… and of all the Greek peoples, join your fellow-soldiers and entrust yourselves to me, so that we can move against the barbarians and liberate ourselves from the Persian bondage, for as Greeks we should not be slaves to barbarians. (Kallisthenes, “Historia Alexandri Magni”, 1.15.1-4)

Q3: "Why were the Greeks liberated by the Romans when the Romans defeated the Macedonians?"
A3: What are you talking about???

"Greeks had nothing in common with the Macedonians."

Oh, really?

George Cawkwell, Emeritus Fellow, University College, Oxford:

The Macedonians were Greeks. ("Philip of Macedon", Faber & Faber, London, p.22)

R. M. Cook, British archaeologist:

Macedonia and Epirus were the buffers of Greece in Europe. ("The Greeks until Alexander", 1962, p. 23)

Victor Ehrenberg, German historian:

Alexander and the Macedonians carried Greek civilization into the East. ("The Greek State", Methuen, July 2000, p.139)

Robin Lane Fox, English academic and historian:

To a Persian's ancestors, Macedonians were only known as 'Yona takabara', the 'Greeks who wear shields on their heads', an allusion to their broad-brimmed hats. (“Alexander the Great", p.104)

Ian Worthington, English historian and archaeologist:

Not much need to be said about the Greekness of ancient Macedonia: it is undeniable. ("Philip II of Macedonia", Yale University Press, 2008)

David H. Levinson:

It should be noted that there is no connection between the Macedonians of the time of Alexander the Great who were related to other Hellenic tribes and the Macedonians of today, who are of Slavic Origin and related to the Bulgarians. ("Encyclopedia of World Cultures")

You dear quote Gandeto, aka Josif Grezlovski, a FYROMian, a quote you international scholars and ancient Macedonians. You suck, go read a book not punlished in FYROM...

@Angela Discouri

Just noticed, you have your answers by Alexander. :)

I am sorry to see that there are people who still count on GANDETOS’s lies.
This person is a proven text forger with all of his books being real crap as he isolates, hides or partly reveals truth!
Actually GANDETO reuses the Bulgarian texts of the past century. To say that today even the Bulgarians have abandoned them.

So he uses this Gobineau as a proof to his sayings. Gobineau, 1869! Very recent!
Only that a few years later G Hadjidakis published in 1895 his work: “about the Greek identity of the ancient Macedonians “which still remains sound and valid!

1.
Ancient Macedonians were Greeks:
.(a)
All of the thousands of their inscriptions dated before the
Roman occupation, found in Macedonia are ALL in Greek. There is not even a
single inscription found in Macedonia, which was not written in Greek.
.(b)
The vast majority of their names (of men and women) are
Greek names. Those few that cannot be identified as Greek, cannot be identified
as non-Greek either. (Nobody can say that they are of Illyrian or Dardanian or
whatever the origin).
.(c)
They shared the same religion with the rest of the
Greeks.
.(d)
Their traditions and their cultural aspects (e.g. the
names of their months) were Greek.
.(e)
They participated in the ancient Olympic Games. Everybody
knows that only Greeks could participate in the ancient Olympics at that time.
That means that they considered themselves as Greeks and also that the rest of
the Greeks considered them as Greeks too.
.(f)
Their language was Greek too. The Pella Curse and the
Aiani inscriptions triumphantly prove it. As even simple people were speaking
Greek well before 400 BC it is impossible that they were ever linguistically
Hellinized.

All of the above show the ancient Macedonians’ Greek
identity and count much more than personal opinions i.e. like those of Demosthenes.

2.
Regarding Kapodistrias and Greece’s borders.
It depends on the sources.
Strabo for example considers Macedonia as part of Greece while in another part of his writings he excludes it.
However he mentions in a third part that Macedonians are people, same as the Epirotes (Strabo 7.7.8) and of course there is no dispute that the Epirotes were not Greeks.
Polybius also mentions that the delegate of the Macedonians, speaking before the Spartans, calls Macedonians, Spartans and the Achaeans as people of the same race.
There is no report about any Spartan reaction about this which means in turn that even Spartans considered Macedonians to be Greeks. (Polybius 9.37).

But GANDETO speaks for the opposite!
Whom should we trust? Gandeto? lol!

3.
I don’t know Salvanos’ report but the word “indifferent” is the key word.
There are Greeks, Bulgarians and others who are ethnically indifferent; however they are all people from the same place, Macedonia, so they are all Macedonians.
As such, all of them, (Greek, Bulgarian and “indifferent” people) call themselves Macedonians. This means clearly that the term does not have any national but simply geographical meaning.
Not difficult for one to realize this, athough this depends however on the propaganda degree!

Karl Hron (Austrian, publicist, 1890). Very recent too!
First of all he is a publicist; neither a historian, nor an ethnologist, so his sayings are of little value (like Gandeto’s sayings).
Then everybody knows that Austria-Hungary of that time had interests on the area and promoted the idea of a country-protectorate.
As anyone can realize, scientific research and not political interests do make History.

Gandeto in despair!

The cincinnatian strikes again at the non-Macedonian, anti-Macedonian South Slavonian Slavs who were subjected to an intense and painful "Macedonization" or "Jenissarization" process which has created the modern pseudo-Macedonian jenissaries to promote and fight forthe fraud and forgery that the South Slavonian Slavs have in some miraculous and incomprehensible way evolved to be the modern pseudo-Macedonians because they have assigned themselves the same Macedonian name that the Greek people of the northern province of ancient Macedonia have had for more than two and a half millennia and, consequently, the South Slavonian Slavs of fyrom would not just like to share that name with us, the Macedonian Greek people but establish a monopoly on that fraudulent identity name if possible by disputing or denying our Macedonian Hellenism and forging that Macedonian Greek name to themselves but without its Greekness.
The painful truth regarding those people is that they did not only "Macedonize" or "jenissarize" themselves but also the twenty or so thousand of Macedonian Greek children they abducted from their parents during the so-called civil war and they are using them now like the Ottoman Turks did many years ago to fight against their own Greek people who gave birth to them.
Then, they have the audacity to say that the Greeks did some bad things to them, actually, to their old Bulgarian comrades who had entered northern Greece and did all kinds of atrocities to "Bulgarize" the Macedonian Greek population and change, if possible, the demographic composition of the Macedonian Greek people when they were under Ottoman Occupation and the Bulgarian invaders were ravaging the contryside.
As I have before the Macedonian Greek people did not accept a Bulgarian identity so, the South Slavonian Slavs created or invented a better way to get the Macedonian Greek people to identify with themselves and, hence, they called themselves "Macedonians", that is, pseudo-Macedonians so that they can mislead and confuse the peasants to think of themselves as being the same people since thet both were using the same Macedonian name.
However, we have come to a point where if I say to a Macedonian Greek or just to any Greek person that I am a Macedonian, like the Cretans say they Cretans, etc. I will be confused as a possible citizen of the pseudo-Macedonia or FYROM and I need to explain myself that I am not what that name has come to mean and for obvious reasons.
As I said before and I would like to repeat again only paranoid, insane and schisophrenic people would dare say that they are "Macedonians" or pseudo-Macedonians because the Macedonian adcective does not and cannot be used to identify two different kinds of people with the same name as one of them is not what that name stands for and the Macedonian adjective stands and it always has done so, Greek people and not ever Slavic people of any kind or land.
Somebody said to me why are there 45 university departments that promote the "Macedonian" language. I Say that happens for the same fraudulent reason as the 120, they say, countries that recognize The country of South Slavonia with the fraudulent name of "Macedonia".
Politicians and even Universty professors are not so sensitive to historical truth and justice and they chose political or economic interests which are of immediate concern to them. Money talks and it does so more in politics than anything else.
I also want to say that just like in the case of Jesus when he was brought to Pontius Pilate, He was crucified because the people of Barabbas yelled louder than those of Jesus Christ.
I could go on but I am going to stop right here and ask the South Slavonian Slavs to tell me and the audience what is it that makes them "Macedonians", pseudo-Macedonians, that is, how did they get to become so, when did they do so and why.
I would like to hear some intelligent answers and I promise that I will put those answers in gold frame studded with diamonds.
There is one and only Macedonia and that is the northern province of Greece and one and only one Macedonian people and that is the Macedonian Greek people and everybody else is an impostor. N.M.H.

Not only they refuse they are Slavs, but now they claim Achilles was a FYROMina!!! HAHAHHAHAHAHAAAAAAAA!!!!

http://mn.mk/kultura/6994-Bese-si-bila-Prikazna-za-Ahil

It's all about freedom. As every free human being, we are the ones to say what's our name. Otherwise, we are not free. It is a shame that we have to prove anything to anyone, but this is a crazy world.

to Goran:
No Goran, it's about respect of other people name, history, culture and identity. But then again, I forgot, you FYROMians are special kind of people, the greatest of all! You are the blessed "Macedonoids", the progenitors of the White race!

Here is your "Macedonian prayer" on wikipedia:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_Prayer_%28­­­video%29

Do read the English translation on the bottom of the page and then laugh at yourselves. Indeed Goran, it's a crazy world you live in.

@ Miro Sekula
Abecedar was issued after the Bulgarian insistence that forced Greece to issue this, as well as to recognize (sillily from the side of Greece) the people of the Greek area of Macedonia as Bulgarian minority, however the Greek parliament rejected the recognition proposal for the Slavophones as a Bulgarian minority.

As you realize from the above, the Abecedar does not make any proof about any “Macedonian” minority or ethnicity!

I cannot open the second link but it is well known that the US immigration authorities considered those who named themselves as Macedonians to be Bulgarians!

Again no proof that a “Macedonian” ethnicity ever existed prior to Tito’s time.

All thee ICJ verdict showed is there is very real racism against Greeks. An objective viewer who was paying attention would notice FYROM's sudden change in identity into "ancient Macedonians" these last few years (and irredentism).

Anyone that apologizes for FYROM now is evil. They are effectively colluding in FYROM's attempts to erase the identity of Greeks (to hide their shame for supporting them)

The Macedonia defeated Greece at the battle of Chaeronea in August 338 BC. This battle had established Macedonian hegemony over Greece and this date is commonly taken as the end of Greek history and the beginning of the Macedonian era. Greece did not regain its independence until 1827 AD.

Greek propagandists claim that ancient Macedonia was Greek. Why then, would the Holy Bible distinguish between the two?

- The latest scientific research on the origin of Mediterranean peoples between them and the Macedonian people, which was made by the world renowned institutes for Genetic Engineering from Madrid (Spain), concluded that the majority people who live in the territory of the Republic of Macedonia has always lived in this territory, and settled out from nowhere. Genetics Institute of Madrid considered Macedonians as rarely ethnic genesis in Europe is endemic. You can see this research on this link: http://www.makedonika.org/processpaid.aspcontentid=ti.2001.pdf - please put attention to page 8 about results discussion.

@ Amita

Alexander I of Macedon, king of Macedon from 498 BCE to 454 BCE:

Tell your king (Xerxes), who sent you, how his Greek viceroy of Macedonia has received you hospitably. (Herodotus, “Histories”, 5.20.4, Loeb)

Men of Athens... In truth I would not tell it to you if I did not care so much for all Greece; I myself am by ancient descent a Greek, and I would not willingly see Greece change her freedom for slavery. I tell you, then, that Mardonius and his army cannot get omens to his liking from the sacrifices. Otherwise you would have fought long before this. Now, however, it is his purpose to pay no heed to the sacrifices, and to attack at the first glimmer of dawn, for he fears, as I surmise that your numbers will become still greater. Therefore, I urge you to prepare, and if (as may be) Mardonius should delay and not attack, wait patiently where you are; for he has but a few days' provisions left. If, however, this war ends as you wish, then must you take thought how to save me too from slavery, who have done so desperate a deed as this for the sake of Greece in my desire to declare to you Mardonius' intent so that the barbarians may not attack you suddenly before you yet expect them. I who speak am Alexander the Macedonian. (From the speech of Alexander I of Macedon when he was admitted to the Olympic games, Herodotus, "Histories", 9.45)

Alexander the Great, king of Macedon, 356 BCE - 323 BCE:

Your ancestors came to Macedonia and the rest of Greece and did us great harm, though we had done them no prior injury. I have been appointed leader of the Greeks, and wanting to punish the Persians I have come to Asia, which I took from you... (Alexander's letter to Persian king Darius in response to a truce plea, as quoted in "Anabasis Alexandri" by Roman historian Arrian, Book II, 14, 4)

Holy shadows of the dead, I’m not to blame for your cruel and bitter fate, but the accursed rivalry which brought sister nations and brother people, to fight one another. I do not feel happy for this victory of mine. On the contrary, I would be glad, brothers, if I had all of you standing here next to me, since we are united by the same language, the same blood and the same visions. (Addressing the dead Greeks of the Battle of Chaeronea, as quoted in “Historiae Alexandri Magni”, 6.3.11, by Roman historian Quintus Curtius Rufus.)

If it were not my purpose to combine foreign things with things Greek, to traverse and civilize every continent, to search out the uttermost parts of land and sea, to push the bounds of Macedonia to the farthest Ocean, and to disseminate and shower the blessings of Greek justice and peace over every nation, I should not be content to sit quietly in the luxury of idle power, but I should emulate the frugality of Diogenes. But as things are, forgive me, Diogenes, that I imitate Heracles, and emulate Perseus, bands follow in the footsteps of Dionysus, the divine author and progenitor of my family, and desire that victorious Greeks should dance again in India and revive the memory of the Bacchic revels among the savage mountain tribes beyond the Caucasus. (Plutarch, "Moralia: On the Fortune of Alexander", I, 332a-b)

Youths of the Pellaians and of the Macedonians and of the Greek Amphictiony and of the Lakedaimonians and of the Corinthians… and of all the Greek peoples, join your fellow-soldiers and entrust yourselves to me, so that we can move against the barbarians and liberate ourselves from the Persian bondage, for as Greeks we should not be slaves to barbarians. (Pseudo-Kallisthenes, “Historia Alexandri Magni”, 1.15.1-4)

Now you fear punishment and beg for your lives, so I will let you free, if not for any other reason so that you can see the difference between a Greek king and a barbarian tyrant, so do not expect to suffer any harm from me. A king does not kill messengers. (Pseudo-Kallisthenes, “Historia Alexandri Magni”, 1.37.9-13)

There are Greek troops, to be sure, in Persian service — but how different is their cause from ours! They will be fighting for pay — and not much of at that; we, on the contrary, shall fight for Greece, and our hearts will be in it. (Addressing his troops prior to the Battle of Issus, as quoted in “Anabasis Alexandri” by Roman historian Arrian, Book II, 7)

Philip V, King of Macedon, 221 BC - 179 BC:

For on many occasions when I and the other Greeks sent embassies to you begging you to remove from your statutes the law empowering you to get booty from booty, you replied that you would rather remove Aetolia from Aetolia than that law (Polybius, “The Histories”, 18.4.8)

Aeschines, Greek statesman and one of the ten Attic orators, 389–314 BCE:

For at a congress of the Lacedaemonian allies and the other Greeks, in which Amyntas, the father of Philip, being entitled to a seat, was represented by a delegate whose vote was absolutely under his control, he joined the other Greeks in voting to help Athens to recover possession of Amphipolis. As proof of this I presented from the public records the resolution of the Greek congress and the names of those who voted. ("On the Embassy", 32)

Arrian, Roman historian and philosopher, 92-175 CE:

To Athens also he sent 300 suits of Persian armour to be hung up in the Acropolis as a votive offering to Athena, and ordered this inscription to be fixed over them, "Alexander, son of Philip and all the Greeks except the Lacedaemonians, present this offering from the spoils taken from the foreigners inhabiting Asia. (Anabasis Alexandri", I, 16, 7)

Diodorus Siculus, Greek historian, born at Agyrium in Sicily, c. 90 BC– c. 30 BCE:

Every seat in the theatre was taken when Philip appeared wearing a white cloak and by his express orders his bodyguard held away from him and followed only at a distance, since he wanted to show publicly that he was protected by the goodwill of all the Greeks, and had no need of a guard of spearmen. ("Library", 16.93.1)

Such was the end of Philip (II, king of Macedonia) ...He had ruled 24 years. He is known to fame as one who with but the slenderest resources to support his claim to a throne won for himself the greatest empire among the Greeks, while the growth of his position was not due so much to his prowess in arms as to his adroitness and cordiality in diplomacy. ("Library", 16.95.1-2)

Gaius Julius Caesar, Roman military and political leader, 100 or 102 BCE – 44 BCE:

Caesar judged that he must drop everything else and pursue Pompey where he had betaken himself after his flight, so that he should not be able to gather more forces and renew, and he advanced daily as far as he could go with the cavalry and ordered a legion to follow shorter stages. An edict had been published in Pompey's name that all the younger men in the province (Macedonia), both Greeks and Roman citizens, should assemble to take an oath. ("Civil War", 111.102.3)

Flavius Josephus, Jewish historian, 1st-century CE:

And when the book of Daniel was showed to him (Alexander the Great) wherein Daniel declared that one of the Greeks should destroy the empire of the Persians, he supposed that himself was the person intended. ("Antiquities of the Jews", Book 11.8.5)

Herodotus, Greek historian, 484 BC-ca. 425 BCE:

Now that these descendants of Perdiccas (Perdiccas I of Macedon, king of Macedonia from about 700 BCE to about 678 BCE) are Greeks, as they themselves say, I myself chance to know and will prove it in the later part of my history. ("Histories", 5.22.1)

Alexander (I of Macedon), however, proving himself to be an Argive, was judged to be a Greek. He accordingly competed in the furlong race and tied step for first place. ("Histories", 5.22.2)

From Argos (in Peloponnesus, Greece) fled to the Illyrians three brothers of the descendants of Temenus, Gauanes, Aeropus, and Perdiccas; and passing over from the Illyrians into the upper parts of Macedonia they came to the city of Lebaia. (“Histories”, 8.137-139)

Isocrates, Greek rhetorician and one of the ten Attic orators, 436–338 BCE:

Therefore, since the others are so lacking in spirit, I think it is opportune for you to head the war against the King; and, while it is only natural for the other descendants of Heracles, and for men who are under the bonds of their polities and laws, to cleave fondly to that state in which they happen to dwell, it is your privilege, as one who has been blessed with untrammelled freedom, to consider all Greece your fatherland, as did the founder of your race, and to be as ready to brave perils for her sake as for the things about which you are personally most concerned. ("To Philip", 5.127, Loeb)

Livy, Roman historian, 59 BCE – CE 17:

The Aitolians, the Akarnanians, the Macedonians, men of the same speech, are united or disunited by trivial causes that arise from time to time; with aliens, with barbarians, all Greeks wage and will wage eternal war; for they are enemies by the will of nature, which is eternal, and not from reasons that change from day to day... ("History of Rome", Book XXXI, 29.15)

Plutarch, Greek historian, 46 -127 CE:

Yet through Alexander (the Great) Bactria and the Caucasus learned to revere the gods of the Greeks... Alexander established more than seventy cities among savage tribes, and sowed all Asia with Greek magistracies ... Egypt would not have its Alexandria, nor Mesopotamia its Seleucia, nor Sogdiana its Prophthasia, nor India its Bucephalia, nor the Caucasus a Greek city, for by the founding of cities in these places savagery was extinguished and the worse element, gaining familiarity with the better, changed under its influence. ("Moralia: On the Fortune of Alexander", I, 328d, 329a Loeb)

And it is said that when he took his seat for the first time under the golden canopy on the royal throne, Demaratus the Corinthian, a well-meaning man and a friend of Alexander's, as he had been of Alexander's father, burst into tears, as old men will, and declared that those Greeks were deprived of great pleasure who had died before seeing Alexander seated on the throne of Dareius. ("Parallel Lives: Alexander", 37.7)

Polybius, Greek historian, 203–120 BCE:

In the presence of Zeus, Hera, and Apollo: in the presence of the Genius of Carthage, of Heracles, and Iolaus: in the presence of Ares, Triton, and Poseidon: in the presence of the gods who battle for us and the Sun, Moon, and Earth; in the presence of Rivers, Lakes, and Waters: in the presence of all the gods who possess Macedonia and the rest of Greece: in the presence of all the gods of the army who preside over this oath. ("Histories", VII, 9.2-3, Loeb)

How highly should we honour the Macedonians, who for the greater part of their lives never cease from fighting with the barbarians for the sake of the security of Greece? For who is not aware that Greece would have constantly stood in the greater danger, had we not been fenced by the Macedonians and the honourable ambition of their kings? ("Histories", IX, 35.2, Loeb)

Surely it would have been much more dignified and fairer to include Philip's achievements in the history of Greece than to include the history of Greece in that of Philip. (Statement on Theopompus, "Histories", VIII, 11.4, Loeb)

Quintus Curtius Rufus, Roman historian, 1st century CE:

Alexander called a meeting of his generals the next day. He told them that no city was more hateful to the Greeks than Persepolis, the capital of the old kings of Persia; the city from which troops without number had poured forth, from which first Darius and then Xerxes had waged an unholy war on Europe. To appease the spirits of their forefathers they should wipe it out, he said. (Alexander the Great Speaking to his own Macedonian Commanders, “Historiae Alexandri Magni”, 5.6.1)

Strabo, Greek historian, geographer and philosopher, 64 BCE – 24 CE:

There remain of Europe, first, Macedonia and the part of Thrace that are contiguous to it and extend as far as Byzantium; secondly, Greece; and thirdly, the Islands that are close by. Macedonia, of course, is a part of Greece, yet now, since I am following the nature and shape of the place geographically, I have decided to classify it apart from the rest of Greece and to join it with that part of Thrace... ("Geography", VII, Frg. 9, Loeb)

Three classes inhabited the city (Alexandria in Egypt): first the Egyptian or native stock of people, who were quick-tempered and not inclined to civil life; and secondly the mercenary class, who were severe and numerous and intractable...; and, third, the tribe of the Alexandrians, who also were not distinctly inclined to civil life, and for the same reasons, but still they were better than those others, for even though they were a mixed people, still they were Greeks by origin and mindful of the customs common to the Greeks. ("Geography", 17.1.12-13)

Journalist: What is your opinion for the problem which Greece has to accept the name Macedonia which the Scopje Government (FYROM) is trying to implement?

Henry Kissinger: Look, I believe that Greece is right to object and I agree with Athens. The reason is that I know history which is not the case with most of the others including most of the Government and Administration in Washington. The strength of the Greek case is that of the history which I must say that Athens have not used so far with success.

(Henry Kissinger, Management Centre Europe, Paris, 19 June 1992)

We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are Slavs and our language is closely related to Bulgarian. There is some confusion about our identity.

(Gyordan Veselinov, FYROMian ambassador to Canada, Ottawa Citizen, February 24, 1999)

@ Aminta:

Stop humiliating yourself and start read some real science. FYROMians are Slavs and genetically related to Bulgarians, like it or not...

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10038-007-0125-6

(Rebala K et al. (2007), Y-STR variation among Slavs: evidence for the Slavic homeland in the middle Dnieper basin, Journal of Human Genetics, 52:406-14.)

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/mksg/tan/2000/00000055/00000001/art00009;jsessionid=t6k1ukjgmoic.alexandra

(HLA-DRB and -DQB1 polymorphism in the Macedonian population, Hristova-Dimceva et al., Tissue Antigens, Volume 55, Number 1, January 2000 , pp. 53–56(4), Publisher: Wiley-Blackwell)

http://www.fsigenetics.com/article/S1872-4973%2811%2900079-2/fulltext

(Forensic Science International: Genetics, Volume 5, Issue 4, Pages e108-e111, August 2011, Genetic data for 17 Y-chromosomal STR loci in Macedonians in the Republic of Macedonia, Zlatko Jakovski, Ksenija Nikolova, Renata Jankova-Ajanovska, Damir Marjanovic, Naris Pojskic, Biljana Janeska)

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1399-0039.2004.00273.x/abstract;jsessionid=E428B7DDF243B1E9AC48F2598B22D414.d01t02

(Petlichkovski A, Efinska-Mladenovska O, Trajkov D, Arsov T, Strezova A, Spiroski M (2004). "High-resolution typing of HLA-DRB1 locus in the Macedonian population". Tissue Antigens 64 (4): 486–91. doi:10.1111/j.1399-0039.2004.00273.x. PMID 15361127.)

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v11/n7/full/5200992a.html

(European Journal of Human Genetics – Y chromosomal heritage of Croatian population and its island isolates.")

@ Miro Sekula

Prpic, George. South Slavic immigration in America, Boston: Twayne, 1978, p. 212-222:

"The smallest of the South Slavic ethnic groups in America are the Bulgarians. One branch of them are the Macedonians".

@ Miro Sekula

The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World, pp. 85-89, by Loring M. Danforth:

"The largest number of Slavic-speaking immigrants from Macedonia came to the United States during the first decade of the twentieth century, at which time they identified themselves either as Bulgarians or as Macedonian-Bulgarians".

Cheers!

The pseudo-genetic engineering study conducted in Spain is probably the most deceptive and fraudulent work published for the South Slavonian Slavs to fraudulently connect them with the "Macedonian", Greek of course people, but without their Greekness so that it will provide for them a deceptive and fraudulent identity to lean on and dream on that they have some connection with the Macedonian people that they love so much to identify themselves because when you have not much history and whatever it is is useless and worthless, so it does make sense to appropriate the history of your southern neighbors who are so well renowned in the world for their Macedonian but Greek history.
I would like to say that if there were any genetic similarities of historical importance , those belong to either the ancient Paeonians or the ancient Dardanians but not to the ancient Macedonians because their genetic make up is identicak to to that of the other Greek people of the mainland.
Iwould also like to let my audience know that when the ancient Macedonians were joing the other Greeks in the mainland to get ready for the Persian campaign, there were no South Slavonian Slavs or any other kind of Slavic people residing in what constitutes today their homeland but, on the contrary, there were Paeonians and Dardanians and some of them may have been used by Alexander to supply his army with them but Alexander did use many Greek soldiers to fight with him against the Persians.
Also, when the ancient Romans were conquering the Balkans as well as Greece where were the South Slavonian Slavs to be found. Obviously, NOWHERE as there were not any there at that time either. Finally, when Saint Paul visited Ancient Macedonia as well as Greece where were the South Slavonians? They wee not there again and nowhere to be found.
One more thing for all of you to know is that when Saint Paul visited the Macedonian cities of Napoli, Filippi, Appolonia, Thessaloniki, Beroia as well as Athens and Corinth he did preach the word of God to all of them in their native Greek language and not, ever in any Slavic language as there were as I said earlier no Slavs to be found there.
The Slavic People came down the Balkans in the sixth or seventh centuries and that is about one thousand years later than Macedonia became a Roman province.
So, where is the connection of the South Slavonian Slavs with Macedonian Greek, of course, people when there were not any when the Macedonian Greek people together with the other Greeks were making history?
The conclusion is that since the South Slavonian Slavs were not there to make history with the Macedonian as well as other Greek people, they take the easy way out they steal our history with FRAUD AND FORGERY. N.M.H.

Goran says that we or I cannot sustain a discussion without being offensive.
Well, Goran, who is or who are the ones that are offensive? is it the Greeks or the South Slavonian Slavs who not only offend us or insult us but constantly are attacking with hybris, blasphemy and sacrilege by committing an identity theft of the Macedonian Greek name and using fraud and forgery to dispute the Hellenic identity of Macedonia and, above all, forge a Slavic identity or even a Slavic sovereignty to that land if possible.
So, Goran, who is or are offensive, the South Slavonian Slavs who are appropriating our Macedonian identity or the Greeks who are patiently and stupidly tolerating all these crimes committed by your people against our Macedonian Greek people who are losing their patience and need to take some drastic measures to stop this wholesale robbery? N.M.H.

The pathetic attempt by Greeks to change their international name into “Hellenes” creates problems at passport control officers in several countries because they have no clue what “Hellas” is!!!!!

@ Alexander

your posts are just a spam and prove the opposite of what you claim , and here are the real quotes from the links
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1399-0039.2004.00273.x/abstract;jsessionid=E428B7DDF243B1E9AC48F2598B22D414.d01t02
"A phylogenetic tree constructed on the basis of the high-resolution data deriving from other populations revealed the clustering of Macedonians together with other Balkan populations (Greeks, Croats, Turks and Romanians) and Sardinians, close to another “European” cluster consisting of the Italian, French, Danish, Polish and Spanish populations. The included African populations grouped on the opposite side of the tree."
NO MENTION OF BULGARIANS AND SERBS, AND PLACES MACEDONIANS (BY THEIR ANCIENT NAME THAT YOU DISPUTE) IN THE OLD EUROPEAN NATIONS, IN ALL OF THE ARTICLES..AND CONFIRMS THAT YOU DO NOT HAVE ANYTHING AGAINST USING SCIENTIFIC DATA THAT DESCRIBES THE TERMS MACEDONIANS AND THE REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA, BU THE SAME SCIENTISTS THAT YOU QUOTE AND OPINIONS SUPPORT!

@ Alexander

Yes, Slavic-speaking, not Slavs! And contrary to what the author states "at which time
they identified themselves either as Bulgarians or as Macedonian-Bulgarians" I have provided a proof of records that states the opposite...thanks for this one too!

@ The Cincinnatian

A lots of jibrish in your post...
St. Paul didn't "visited Ancient Macedonia as well as Greece" ...he visited Macedonia and there was no greeks or Greece. Todays Greece consist of many other nations that did not consider themselves to be of Hellenic origin, and today we have some urging for independence from Greece....don't let me start denying your origins and ethnogenesis....just read "The Black Athens"!
Yes "visited the Macedonian cities of Napoli, Filippi, Appolonia, Thessaloniki, Beroia" they are Macedonian cities, but you claim they are Greek!
The Romans where fighting the Macedonians together with their Hellenic vassals for 150 years, and it is the longest war campaign in the history of the world...and the 1000 years you mentioned are just and ignorant, stupid person trying to make a point...and the roman authors have shown much more respect towards the Macedonians than towards the Hellenic population!
And you also try to show expertise in genetics..."but not to the ancient Macedonians because their genetic make up is identicak to to that of the other Greek people of the mainland."..So how can you prove this hilarious claim of yours?! ...or will you, as usual, just offer empty talk?

@ Marta from Poland

And here is another one that just wants to present as clever!
Martha, Macedonia and the Republic of Macedonia is supported by the Polish Administration, Scientists and Politics. You should read more. Yes, we all make jokes but usually in stereotypes about thins, and in this case people and places we do not know about!
Polish official science confirms the significance of St. Cyril and Methodius for the Poles, and calls them as Macedonians, as well as Vatican does!
On the other hand, as a young person as you strike me, you should start reading some modern takes on history, not only the 10-15 centuries old, 20 times translated quotes...the modern science has wiped the old and here is a chance that we, The Macedonians, are discovering our own history for the first time as independent state, and I hope that the young people of the world should support such efforts more than the old ignorant establishments!
Any how, you have the right of opinion, but you should fight for the right of others to receive the same treatment as you have...freedom of expansion, human and religious rights, the freedom of self declaration.....and if you do not do that, the world will be a bad place for your children to grow up!

@ Miro Sekula and Goran

You might be just FYROMian propagandists and sources falsifiers, but you are also Slavs, and actually Bulgarians, speaking a Bulgarian language, deal with it.

For your information: officialy FYROM does not recognise a "Bulgarian" ethnic group in FYROM, however:

During the last few years thousands of citizens of the FYROM have applied for Bulgarian citizenship (amongst them FYROM's former PM Ljubco Georgievski), with 42,372 having already received Bulgarian passports. In order to obtain the passport, the FYROMian citizens who apply for Bulgarian citizenship must prove that they have a Bulgarian origin and a Bulgarian national consciousness. Between 1 January to 18 November 2011, the Bulgarian council for citizenship considered 22,241 applications for citizenship, of which 13,607 were approved.

http://www.utrinski.com.mk/default.asp?ItemID=6DEE37ED10742542A92C5103A4353E01

http://www.utrinski.com.mk/default.asp?ItemID=273ED325B8ADBC428619574A7BBC83B8

http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=135109

Lol, funny, huh??

Allow me to remind what your main hero said:

Krste Misirkov, Bulgarian philologist and publicist, considered a national hero in the FYROM:

Some will ask why I speak of breaking away from the Bulgarians when in the past we have even called ourselves Bulgarians and when it is generally accepted that unification creates strength, and not separation.("On the Macedonian Matters", Sofia 1903)

And, anyway, what sort of new Macedonian nation can this be when we and our fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers have always been called Bulgarians?("On the Macedonian Matters", Sofia 1903)

We are more Bulgarian than those in Bulgaria. ("On the Macedonian Matters", Sofia 1903)

We speak a Bulgarian language. ("On the Macedonian Matters", Sofia 1903)

Now have a good look on what your modern officials said:

Kiro Gligorov, first president of the FYROM:

We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century. We are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians. (Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992, p. 35)

We are Slav Macedonians. That's who we are! We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia! Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century AD. (Toronto Star, March 15, 1992)

Gyordan Veselinov, ambassador of the FYROM to Canada:

We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian. There is some confusion about the identity of the people of my country.

(Ottawa Citizen, 24 February 1999)

Slobodan Casule, politician of the FYROM:

We belong to the same Slav people.

(To the Foreign Minister of Bulgaria, Solomon Pasi, Utrinski Vesnik newspaper, December 29, 2001)

And now take a look what ancient Macedonians said:

Alexander I of Macedon, king of Macedon from 498 BCE to 454 BCE:

Men of Athens. In truth I would not tell it to you if I did not care so much for all Greece; I myself am by ancient descent a Greek, and I would not willingly see Greece change her freedom for slavery. (Herodotus, "Histories", 9.45)

Alexander the Great, king of Macedon, 356 BCE - 323 BCE:

Your ancestors came to Macedonia and the rest of Greece and did us great harm, though we had done them no prior injury. I have been appointed leader of the Greeks, and wanting to punish the Persians I have come to Asia, which I took from you. (Alexander's letter to Persian king Darius in response to a truce plea, as quoted in "Anabasis Alexandri" by Roman historian Arrian, Book II, 14, 4)

Miro and Goran (btw, how nice Slavic names!) you are humiliating yourselves and the world is laughing at you...

Dimitris From Athens have a look to this book (there is also the greek version of it) and you will learn when "Greeks" started to call themselves "makedones", too!
http://www.scribd.com/doc/93079963/THE-MESSAGE-OF-THE-LOCAL-NATIVE

@ enat

Eugene N. Borza, American historian, has written multiple works on ancient Macedon and is regarded an expert on the overall subject:

Modern Slav Macedonians, cannot establish a link with antiquity, as the Slavs entered the Balkans centuries after the demise of the ancient Macedonian kingdom. Only the most radical Slavic factions—mostly émigrés in the United States, Canada, and Australia—even attempt to establish a connection to antiquity.
The twentieth-century development of a "Macedonian" ethnicity, and its recent evolution into independent statehood following the collapse of the Yugoslav state in 1991, has followed a rocky road. In order to survive the vicissitudes of Balkan history and politics, the "Macedonians", who have had no history, need one. They reside in a territory once part of a famous ancient kingdom, which has borne the Macedonian name as a region ever since and was called ”Macedonia” for nearly half a century as part of Yugoslavia. And they speak a language now recognized by most linguists outside Bulgaria, Serbia, and Greece as a south Slavic language separate from Slovenian, Serbo-Croatian, and Bulgarian.
Their own so-called "Macedonian ethnicity" had evolved for more than a century, and thus it seemed natural and appropriate for them to call the new nation “Macedonia” and to attempt to provide some cultural references to bolster ethnic survival.

("Macedonia Redux", in "The Eye Expanded: life and the arts in Greco-Roman Antiquity", ed. Frances B Tichener & Richard F. Moorton, University of California Press, 1999)

@ enat
"
Dimitris From Athens have a look to this book (there is also the greek version of it) and you will learn when "Greeks" started to call themselves "makedones", too!
http://www.scribd.com/doc/93079963/THE-MESSAGE-OF-THE-LOCAL-NATIVE
"
Please indicate to me the point(s) of interest or I don't think you expect me to read all this propaganda rubbish!

Milo,
I do not want my name, that is my Macedonian Greek identity to be used to identify or even confuse a South Slavonian Slav like yourself with the Macedonian name that is a totally foreign and fraudulent name for you and I would really be guilty and ashamed of myself to tell myself and other people that I am WHAT I AM NOT.
I know that the Macedonian name causes a lot of confusion between the South Slavonian Slavs and the Macedonian Greeks who are the rear and actual Macedonian people and you and your South Slavonian Slavic people are the impostors but yet unfortunately and fraudulently being known as "Macedonians" but really pseudo-Macedonians because there were never anytime in history any Slavic people known as Macedonians other than the Greek people of the Macedonian provine of northern Greece.
I know and I am sorry to admit that fraud and forgery prevailed over the historical truth and justice but politics is very corrupt and totally indifferent and inconsiderable of the facts that disputed the "Macedonization" scam of the South Slavonian Slavs but just like in the case of Jesus Christhistory repeated itself and, since, the South Slavonian Slavs yelled louder their fraudulent pseudo-Macedonian name and, therefore, they prevailed and, consequently, fraud and forgery was ignored and it still is to the detriment of the Greeks who had but did not use any documentation to prove their case but left it to others to do it for us but they did not and we were left behind.
However, no matter what the Macedonian name has come to be confused with, the fact is and remains that Macedonia has alwys been Hellenic land and the Macedonians, the real and actual Macedonians, are and will always be Hellenic people and FRAUD AND FORGERY will ever change that.
My final question to all the South Slavonian Slavs who use the fraudulent Macedonian Greek identity, how can sleep at night and how can go on in your lives when you know that have committed wholesale robbery against your fellow neighbors in the south.
But again who feels guilty in this world for their stolen goods? Not the South Slavonian pseudo-Macedonian Slavs, of course. N.M.H.

inconsiderable of the facts that have been surrounding the Greek people's lives today