Mandelson: ‘UK fading into European background’

Nobody in the UK listens to Mandelson. It is well known that his financial interests lie in the continuation of the EU. Everything he says is in his own self-interest.

Nikolaus van der pas
Cameron may not win a referendum on clawing back law , rules and regulations from the EU . British people want an In/Out referendum on the EU ; because the majority of people want out .
Britain needs to make a completely clean break with the EU !!! The EU will stand to lose Britain's big net contribution and mainland countries sell more to Britain than the reverse . Britains 60% principal trading is with the rest of the world . I do not see Britain aligning with Norway and Switzerland .
Cameron has three years? to make good on a referendum , or he'll be out at the next general election in 2015 .

Nikolaus Van Der Pas

" The UK would be excluded from any EU decision-making "

The EU doesn't make so many decisions and when it does they usually come to nothing .

If you're not a member of the EU , effected by the decisions , there is no need to have a say in making those decisions .

Iwantout

Perhaps Cameron can join Clegg in finding EU jobs after the 2015 general election .

"Nobody obliged the UK to become a member", neither were the voters consulted (which is the whole point really).

"Nobody can stop the UK to get out" Our government is stopping us coming out. The UK government love being in the EU, it relieves them of the duty of actually working for a living. It's the people that want out.

"The next step will be decided by UK voters" Don't count on it. The word "referendum" scares the living daylights out of Europhiles. Even if we get one, what's the betting that the EU will pump billions into a propaganda campaign?

Nikolaus, if only governments would listen :)We taxpayers do after all, pay towards the running of the country.

I sincerely believe that all the citizens of the European Union should have a choice. Many weren't given a referendum and some like France and Ireland were ignored when they gave the wrong answer.

Of course you are correct and I don't blame the EU at all except sometimes it feels as though we are being picked on every now again when other countries seem to get away with breaking all the rules.

I do think to a certain extent that the EU discourages the UK on leaving. We make a huge financial contribution and have given up much in terms of our fishing and farming industries.

There is also the danger that if one country leaves, others might want to follow, especially if that country starts to do rather well economically outside the EUSSR.

The BBC is the EU's main propaganda machine. It receives money from the EU http://bit.ly/Qr4dut which ensures that the "right" message is broadcast (even if they are lies) to the British taxpayer. The public are always complaining about their biased reporting http://www.globalbritain.org/BBC.asp

The most important thing to us is the fact that we were tricked into joining the EU. The government of the UK are duty bound (in common law) to ask the consent of the electorate when making important decisions. We have various historical documents that forbid the passing of our sovereignty to foreign powers, it is infact considered treasonous.

If the people should ever regain control of the country, I wouldn't be at all surprised if certain politicians were held to account on a charge of treason.

David, exactly. I love Europe, my mother was German and I recently lived in Spain for a number of years. I love the Greek people of whom I have close friends and the Dutch and British are so much alike, especially in their humour.

What could be more civilised than sovereign nations trading with each other without the "middle men" that cost us all so much in wages and regulations.

Matthias, I think you're getting us confused with Switzerland. That's the tax haven. It's natural for businesses to move their money out of the Eurozone into those countries that don't have the Euro. They know the Euro is a dead currency. Libor happened globally, the British merely brought the fraud into the open.

Yes, our politicians are corrupt but so are many other countries politicians and don't forget the corruption that occurs in Brussels. OLAF will be able to give you more information on that.

It's mainly foreigners that cause the crime. You only have to look at the court pages http://courtnewsuk.co.uk/ and UK's most wanted criminals http://wanted.crimestoppers-uk.org/?gclid=COCjzuvAwbECFUcKtAodKF4A1g The rioters were also predominantly foreign. As for the binge drinking, I expect some holiday resorts in Greece, Spain and Portugal do pretty well when Britons come and spend thousands in the bars. Obesity is everywhere, it's not a British trait. Our media has been absorbed by the EU and it's lies.

Please feel free to get a petition together asking us to leave, we would be delighted to free our country again. I'm sure you can do without our £50million+ a day contribution. You will all just have to put a little more in the cohesion pot and we can use the money to build up our armed forces again.

The EU is no longer our biggest trading partner, the rest of the world is.

I don't know what country you are from but you obviously haven't a clue how much better the UK would be financially without the EU hanging round our necks.

Maybe they should just go and try to beg again their rodeo fellows for some more crumbs of the decading american empire. I'm sure Washington will have more pitiness and patience than us for their shameless poodle and finally upgrade Britons at puerto rico level, by the way teaching them and their confetti islets on which side of the road one drives.

That's always going to be a few lives saved for the world but apart from that not much for us in Europe will change and I'm sure the British people will feel pretty happy off and even priviledged to be treated like that.

It all seems so easy reading the British eurosceptics on here... Leave the EU and Britain's former glory will reappear, just bring back thez 19th century Nation State and hey presto! How pathetically complacent.

This is the 21st century. What member of the "commonwealth" or of some imaginary "Anglosphere" is suddently going to sign up to London's commercial empire again? Which country would offer Britain such advantageous trade agreements as the EU does today and why? The fact is Britain no longer has any cards to play negotiating alone on the world stage opposite China, the US, the EU, Brazil, Russia... Get used to it.

Life can be a bitch. Britain, just like all the other European countries is going to have to make compromises now, whether inside or outside the EU. Eurosceptics treat the EU question as if it were a consumer choice: I don't like that one anymore, get me the other one instead mummy...

Are you sure? Well ok darling but don't come back whining when it all goes wrong as I warned you!

Let's hope the british people have enough backbone left to ignore these childish whims. And let's hope the europeans aren't getting annoyed with us fussing around all the time with nonsense, because if one thing is for sure, it's that they are going to stay our neighbours for several more millenia.

Mathias

Sue asks where you are from ; my guess is that you are Greek , very ill informed , perhaps one of those who beat up illegal immigrants .
Did you know that Fox News is a US company and not aired in Britain , other that to those who choose via satellite .
I believe Britain is a banking haven for Greeks , Italians , Spanish , Portugese , French and anyone else who wants to salt money away for when their country goes bankrupt or the Euro collapses .
I have been E Mailing No. 10 Downing Street , for some time now , trying to alert Cameron , that banking in London by both Foreign and British banks , was steeped in fraud . I find that very worrying , as Cameron seems to think and maybe is right , that banking is Britains only noteable industry left .
About 40% of Britain's trade is with the EU , but more imports than exports ; 60% of Britain's trade is with the rest of the world and profitable . The figures you show may very well be correct , but reading them carefully , do not bear out your argument .
I believe the EU needs Britain more than the reverse .Britain buys much more than she sells , I do not see any need for changes in British/EU trading if Britain is no longer a member , if there were tariffs , Britain would be better off . In or out of the EU British people will still be your friends and neighbours .
Chris Patten an arch Europhile is I believe director general of the BBC , the which is paid by the EU to give out propaganda in favour of the EU . British people strongly object to the lies expounded by the BBC .
There is a huge amount wrong with Britain today , partly a lagacy from the last government ; but also from the incompetence of the present government .
Globalism has a huge amount to answer for ; banks and corporations are intertwined worldwide . Corruption that starts in the US soon spreads to everywhere else . Government on credit , if you haven't enough money , print some more . Of course Eurozone countries , like Greece , cannot do that anymore , as they could with the Drachma , neither can they adjust up or down the value of their currency . In the past month or so the pound has been holding firm , whereas the Euro is steadily slipping against the Dollar .
Britain seems to have no Foreign policy that isn't dictated by Washington ; it would seem the same goes for the EU . I am utterly disgusted how Obama uses NATO , Britain , France and other countries to front US warmongering , the disaster in Lybia and they'd love to get into Syria too .
Britain is one of the biggest net contributors to the EU ; that huge sum of money could be better spent at home . Within the EU money flows like water and largely finds its way into corrupt schemes , designed to syphon it off .
The British peoples desire to leave the EU is not a childish Whim or recent desire . Britain was taken into the EEC by Ted Heath , without the people being asked at all . Harold Wilson held a referendum in 1975 to ask the people whether thay wanted to remain in or leave . The EU mounted a huge campaign for remaining in , sending speakers to address the people ; whereas the leave brigade were not able to sufficiently get across the dangers . I was among the 40% who voted to leave the EEC . We have been proved right , Britain should never have joined the EEC . The real truth behind the EEC was kept secret , the Ever closer Union , we were lied to by our politicians . We have never forgiven our politicians for their deception and we simply don't want to be members of the EU .
Many British people have strong connections with other countries , myself included . I have live in Italy , speak the language fluently , have a daughter and grandchildren living in Germany , I have friends in nearly every European country . Still I do not need the EU to help bond that unity and friendship .

The EU and Britain would be better served if the UK were to LEAVE the Union for which they have never desired to be a REAL part of.

Then the EU could get down to solving the MAJOR structural problems it is burdened with.

First: the idea of ONLY ONE veto being sufficient to derail progress is asinine and has to go. Something on the order of 3/4 of states representing 60% of the population might be workable; the single veto being reserved for new admissions.

Second: Division of powers between Central European Council and individual states needs to be defined; each authority to be answerable DIRECTLY to the population in its designated realm.

Third: Each must be able to raise monies INDEPENDENTLY of the other level with clearly defined taxation powers; again Central Europe must answer DIRECTLY of the populace.

This is just a beginning, but as it will require work to get even this far, it is enough to start.

Mathias, Looks like the good ole USA is trying buy Greece :)

http://bit.ly/Ozg0BL

"to both make the country an important and loyal base for military intervention against enemies in the region, and itself play a beneficial role in the exploitation of Greece’s energy and mineral assets under the Aegean ocean"

Never mind, I'm sure that highly successful currency, the Euro, will ensure that your countrymen are enslaved forever.

James, nobody wants former glory (really, forget the bl**dy empire, who cares?). We just the right of self-determination and to decide for ourselves how to live our lives. Not too much to ask for is it?

David B, frankly everything you have to propose is going back to "independant sovereign states" loving each other (like Maternick in 1815...) but we had that already and everybody ended up more than twice bombed, destroying each other, losing all wealth, power and influence worldwide as a result... what a brilliant idea!

For your information, let me remind you that someone called R. Murdoch, head of News corp., is indeed controlling a mass media empire in the US and in Australia but also owns in England such subsidiary press like Sky News, The Times, The Sun... With ever better quality information for the good of british people as you seem to know!

May I also remind you that power and wealth in trade are exports and production, imports being dependency and decay. Leave the EU and you'll pay us taxes for everything you need from us. Do you really think we'll bother in return adding a few more worthless pounds for the couple of goods you still manage to sell? They represent a very tiny part of what we buy on the world market and I'm sure the european continent can just as well do without... these are facts.

So just leave and try again to trade with Iceland, Greenland and New Zealand, you'll come back begging for reintegration the same way you begged for decades to get in the ECC after having refused to start with!

As for my own origins, I really wonder what it could help you understanding in economics but let's just say I was born, grew up, studied and now work in many different countries of the eurozone which all are much richer and productive than the UK, all enjoying higher life expectency, good quality infrastructure and public services, higher education level and quality of life. Especially, they all have an other ambition for themselves than diving in greed and becoming cynically the american underdog. Question of cultural diffrences I suppose.

Mathias
How is it that you trot out the same kind of nonsense again ad again .
Though I accept that the Leopard doesn't change his spots , Germans still have the same national characteristics as their grandfathers and great grandfathers , but I give them the credit that times have changed and perhaps they have learned by past mistakes .
Without having an agressive war the EU has managed to waste all its wealth and does not have the power and influence it dreams of .

While you are mentioning Richard Murdock , what about mentioning the onetime great British empire . Not that many people read newspapers today . Further people like newspapers to reflect their opinions , so newspapers write articles damning the EU , so people will buy their newspapers .

You miss the point that I made before . If Britain leaves the EU either there will be no reciprocal taxes , or EU countries will pay more to Britain than the reverse , as Britain imports more than she exports . Perhaps you are unaware that there are countries not in Europe that enjoy free trade without any political afiliation at all .

You may indeed have worked in a number of different countries , I suspect Britain is not one of them .
There is a difference between higher life expectancy and actual higher living stands . Having the good fortune to enjoy the higher lifestyle ; in my travels around Europe over the past 50+ years , I haven't noticed a huge change for the better , if anything a deterioration . Education in all countries is varyable , but at its best I believe Britain has as high as any country in the EU . Many Europeans rate London as one of the best cities in Europe .
The world over is consumed with Greed , I doubt you could name a country and people that isn't . We live in a world of unregulated banking and corporate greed , not confined to the US and Britain .
When you mention cultural differences , that is one of the main stumbling blocks that makes uniting under one flag 27 countries with vastly differing culture , customs and languages .

Mike, please read David Barneby - Posted on : 31/07/2012 regarding trade, I have nothing further to add. You are obviously short-sighted and blinkered and can't quite accept what a damn mess the EU has become. Just remember, there are 127 countries in the world THAT ARE NOT IN THE EU!

The only thing that I am concerned with is the lack of democratic accountability. I've worked for 35 years, paid my taxes and National Insurance like a good little peasant for my children and grandchildren to live in peace and freedom.

Along comes the UK government and hands the whole lot to a bl**dy foreign, socialist state that has more in common with the Soviet Union than any democracy.

Now, the pension I paid into is worthless, I've been driven from two homes because of immigration and the government has resorted to stealing my money to fund projects, fatcats and wars I do not approve of.

To say I am livid is an understatement.

I WANT MY COUNTRY BACK, I WANT A SAY IN HOW MY TAXES ARE SPENT AND HOW MY COUNTRY IS RUN.

Look at how Sue herself seems all happy to consider the only interest her own fellow citizens can represent for Europe, is to be crawlling noisy wallets getting waisted in Las Palmas!
That really tells what's left of pride in british culture doesn't it babe? Apart from the duchess of snowdonia and the princess of disneyland, you haven't managed to preserve much of your own culture and assets... of course we aren't going to complain...

Sure Sue, Thatcher-Major-Blair-Brown last 30 years of government obviously are recognised everywhere as genuinly socialist, who's ever going to contest that!
They deregulated the banking sector all the way to then bail it out with your tax-payers money, how very socialist! evil really!
I thought the Olympics opening main scandal (i.e. the failure of privatising the Police, even Mitt Romney mocked) was rather very telling of the success British politics and culture can be proud of having achieved!

Mathias

David Barneby said
"When you mention cultural differences, that is one of the main stumbling blocks that makes uniting under one flag 27 countries with vastly differing culture, customs and languages."

Says it all and sums it up really. We may have had some unpleasantness in 1914 and 1939 but the Cold War, NATO and Nuclear Weapons managed to keep us together and safe ever since. The Common Market may have helped but was not the be all and end all.

We have got to stop this Europhile propaganda that if the UK left the EU we would be too small to be successful. It is rank scaremongering because I fully believe that if we could lift our sites above the EU and do what we have done for centuries – trade with anyone and everyone. I am not the type of Brit who wants to surrender increasingly all my rights to the unelected second raters that masquerade as the EU Commission. If I was in favour of the Great EUSSR Project I wonder how I would feel in 10 – 20 years time when I found that I lived in a fringe Northern European Region, for all intents and purposes governed by Brussels. We didn't leave over 600,000 war dead in Belgium and France for that to happen.

Like David I have travelled around a lot of Europe and say many things that we Brits could even be envious of. However when you managed to have a good chat with the locals (Dutch, Germans, Austrians, Italians Spanish and Irish.) you found out that things were not fantastic as you had first thought.

I remember Ted Heath taking us into Europe and he did it on a lie! It will be okay chaps it is just a trading club that De Gaulle didn't want us to join. I can therefore understand and sympathise why mainland Europeans may be a bit cheesed of that we appear to be the awkward squad.

This can be solved very easily by having a six month debate (Brits only) followed by an In/Out referendum. This will restore democracy to one one of the oldest democracies in the world and if for some reason the British voted to stay in it would lance the boil and let us move forward. I personally would like to come out but we can't go like this.

I would summarise by saying that there has got to be a better reason for a country called Europe than our fear of War.

I would close by saying that we very rarely learn from the lessons of history and the biggest lesson we can learn lies on the fringes of Europe. It was called Yugoslavia! Make sure we don't repeat that awful result just to create a country.

George just to precise, I'm on your side, I also want britain out (as I said, apart from our various differences on the continent, I think we all have a huge one with english people mainly based on americanised culture). Plus your post seems not so inept as the other eurosceptics here.

But you really need to confront your UKIP MPs with all these questions (how to finance the trade deficit with the EU, what commercial agreements to find elsewhere and with who, what strategy for the future, and these are really tough issues for the UK...)

Your politicians need to give you tangible answers with a defined cap, a solid strategy, and a credible alternative because so far, nobody is ever gonna vote for going out, with just the vague plan of becoming one day the 51st american state in case they accept (otherwise possibly allying with australia in the asian south-east and pacific, or if not just shepard island or mars, what do I know...) Were it to stay so futile and unresponsable as "don't like it, let's find something else, whatever, I don't care", it's never going to be a winning campaign. Think that people have children and bank accounts.

Mike Parr
I do not doubt that your Eurostat data is correct . I have repeated again and again that Britain has a trade deficit with the EU . Whether it is getting worse is questionable , a few years ago Britain was in profit .
I think that trade fluctuates yearly . We are right to worry , where has British industry gone ?
I read in your post to Sue , your obvious socialist leanings , no doubt favouring an EUSSR socialist state .
I fully admit that Cameron should never have become leader of the Tory party and PM . I think that he and his cabinet are too inexperienced and incompetent .
With regard to old Etonians , you are perhaps unaware that the Labour party has been led by more than one Etonian , Clement Attlee for one .
It is regretable to observe that the whole EU is in the hands of Twits

You probably couldn't realise how much Britain stands far away from ever reaching the levels of french or italian civilisation standards. Compared to London, this is obvious to anyone wondering around in Paris or Milan, looking at people and talking to them.
1st you'd have to have the decency of not coming up all the time with your empire-story, "we invented the cat", and absolute pity arrogance, vulgar ignorance and shameless nostalgia.

Despite all the propaganda at work in your country, only 200 years ago (do history classes ever get back that "far" in your country?) used to be a tiny island of fisherman, shepards and pirats. Exept Sheakspear, Purcell and Locke it's hard to recall anyone english from any century before, compared to french, german, austrian or italian classics (each of these countries population was 5/6 times bigger for milleniums).

Everyone has occupied and colonised your island (norway and Danes, Saxons, Normans, Dutch just like americans still occupy it today). It only took you the arrival of industrialisation for starting being an average competitor to the main european countries. And even so your empire was only commercial (a bit like venice, lots of oversees islands, lots of banks but very little actual power). You've never had a real european territorial empire apogee like romans, spaniards, french, prussians, austrians or russians.

And your roccocco, neo gothic, neo classic, neo mauresque typical palace architecture is pathetic compared to any continental one, just like your style in general. So i guess for a tiny island it was hard to know such a progress (with all the destruction it implied through the urbanisation of your meddows...) and only enjoy it from Victoria to Suez at the very maximum, before becoming a rendom american back office, as you in fact always were for someone else wanting to sleep in your bed.

So unappologetically you keep on repeating every now and again a newspeak about your country having always been "la crème de la crème", but everybody knows outside your island what bitterness and resentment this actually only reveals. It's like you are still blocked running after your past for almost a century now. Move on, old fashionness became your trademark. Difficult then to devellopp and catch modernity (rather make rovers and jaguars instead of ferraris and mercedes). Your country was under-develloped in the golden 60s compared to Europe and almost fell into third world category (precisly because you didn't join the common market and prefered cars with 3 whiles). You tried to catch up since but it's only fluctuating bank results that put you just about at our level. Next decade it all desappears again and the money actually, if it ever existed, was in fact in switzerland, luxemburg or in the bahamas. How very ressplendissant, isn't it darling?

I am not sure whether Alcohol or simply apoplexy is imparing your otherwise eloquent English . You are reducing yourself to rambling nonsense.
I suggest back to school to brush up on your history of England .
You should know that everywhere else in Europe has been colonised occupied by other ethnic races . Normans , Saxons , Swedes and anglosaxons are effectvely the same race . I think it might be true to say that central Europe has been like an ever changing Kaleidoscope of peoples .
Your knowledge of architecture could also do with a Brush up . My family home now a National Trust gem of early English Architecture , dating back seven hundred years , a brick and timber Hall House.

Have you never heard of Aston Martin cars , Rover and Jaguar cars have been very good at their best . I believe I'm correct in saying that a number of Formula one cars are designed and built in England . Even Ferrari has had British engineers .
Your rambling last paragraph makes me smile , as you don't know what you are talking about .

Thanks for the " Darling "!!! I blow you a Kiss !!!

It is obvious that Matthias is probably typical of the way we are looked at by some bitter Pro-EU Europeans.

That's fine, no matter, we are used to it. We love Europe, the variety of cultures, foods and traditions is something the British easily embrace (we're not all drunken teenagers). You can see that with our many restaurants, a virtual panacea of global cuisine choices. If all you've experienced is London, then you have missed some epic historical sites with wonderful stories and legends. Your loss.

Manners dictate that I would also never dream of insulting any of our European neighbour's.

My beef is with the EU and it's dictatorial, non democratic institutions. I sincerely believe that all Europeans should be given a choice as to whether they remain members of the EU or not. Indeed, I think we would be much better off as individual states, making deals and trading without their interference which is costly and unnecessary.

Sue and David,

In the main I agree with your posts. I am not a UKIP supporter but if the current government don't come up with a bit of democracy then I am going to have to re think who gets my vote. Its the same old problem when its comes to elections it is usually about the economy, education and the health service. All else gets forgotten.

Maybe more of us are going to have to make a stand and give UKIP our protest vote

Mathias, there is a place called Pseud's Corner in Private Eye where your contributions would probably be welcome, and quite possibly a column or two in Viz would go down well to.

Being the erudite, well travelled, urbane chap you claim to be you will no doubt know those publications well.

Quite the contrary, I blame the British Government for the mess we are in. They are the ones that decided, on our behalf, to bind us to this federal Europe. We weren't asked.

I'm quite familiar with the workings of the EU institutions, which is probably why I don't approve of them. I really don't care who voted for whom, I just know, we, the people, weren't asked.

Yes. I believe that people should run their own countries, regions, towns, cities, villages, not politicians. It's very simple. It's called "taking responsibility for your own life and actions" instead of expecting governments to take the decisions for you. If the people of Yorkshire would like to govern themselves, then they should be able to.

Bringing political decisions down to the lowest level ensures that each region is run according to it's general population's wishes.

I happen to have faith in my fellow man to take the right decisions when they are given the freedom to do so (apathy occurs when those rights are taken away or ignored).

You obviously believe that our lives should be ruled by faceless autocrats who haven't a clue how half of us live. If that's the way you choose to live, that's fine, you are a free to support that. On the other hand, you need to respect that other people don't feel the same way that you do.

I think you'll find that much of Europe is becoming Eurosceptic. It's predominantly amongst the richer members who feel as though they've given more than enough of their hard earned money to the poorer members.

Countries that have gained improved infrastructures, aid packages and other benefits (which they would never have had) are enthusiastic, simply because their lives have improved. Ours, on the hand have not. Prices have skyrocketed, taxes have gone up and we have absolutely no sign that anything has improved. Instead, our roads are now a complete shambles. Energy is now overpriced, educational standards are now dismal, we have a shortage of housing and our welfare system is on the verge of collapse. No, the EU has generally been bad thing for the UK, sorry.

Being an embittered old socialist is not reason enough to be pro EU - I'm sure Kim Philby, Anthony Blunt etc. was one of those but it didn't make them right

Could everyone leave Matthias alone please, he appears about to burst a blood vessel.

We all know where we stand, the overwhelming majority of Britons want a say in the next step this country takes in relation to the EU, we suspect our politicians are desperate to prevent that because of the likely outcome. Matthias and others see a wondrous future for a Federal Europe.

It seems to me that we are actually all on the same side; we just believe our side is in the majority. We should all be demanding our right to be heard directly on this subject through a plebiscite and NO further movement until that is provided. Anyone who takes the view that this is unacceptable would have to explain why the people should not be heard and why we should simply leave this to the ‘leaders’ who created the situation in the first place.

Mathias

We understand that you think the EU is the Utopia of the 20th/21st century . You are entitles to that opinion . If British people want out of the EU , let them go , it's no skin off your nose .
You see the EU as the ideal socialist state , as do most socialists ; money growing on trees to upgrage the poorest , who otherwise could not afford the infrastructure , social services and healthcare of say Germany .

It is true that Britain leaving the EU , might cause the whole edifice to collapse and that would be bad for Britain too at this time of financial crisis .
It should not be overlooked that a collapes of the Eurozone would cause Germany and France great financial loss . You list France as one of the richest countries ,but if the Euro collapsed , she might share the same financial situation as Greece .
The problem with the EU is that it has evolved over many years adding to the original plan , but without hard and fast consideration of the changes/additions being made .
The single currency was to be flagship sign of unity to bond countries together , to herald the eventual creation of a single federal state . The minutiae economics of a single currency , spanning rich and poore countries was never seriously considered by our political leaders , despite the advice from emminent economists .
It is a fact that the single currency has destroyed the economies of poorer countries because their currency was overvalued relative to their capacity for industrial output . Effectively the EU internal market has ground to a halt , as things stand there is no prospect of it ever springing to life again . If some countries in the EU are bankrupt , there are many more up to their eyeballs in debt , even Germany has big debts .
France , Germany , Belgium , Luxemburg , Netherlands and Italy , should have formed an EU as originally planned , it would probably have worked ; but the addition of Britain and so many other countries has made the whole structure too unwealdy .
Globalism has a lot to answer for , business around the world ; bad practices in one country soon spreading to the rest . Banking and financial services is an example in the present spotlight . Fraud being overlooked , going unpunished , as long as banks keep their governments afloat.
If you are Greek? Brits do not despise you ; one of the best holidays I had was sailing in the Cyclades Islands with my son , terrific , and such kind people .
Because southern European countries have found themselves at odds with other EU countries ; there is no need to spit in the face of British people who simply do not want to be members of the socialist club . Remember we are an island people , independent , accustomed to trading around the world . Because people form a union , it does not mean they lose their national characteristics , we are all different . As might be expected Germany has risen to the top again and might just as easily take over the rest of Europe by peaceful means , as nealy happened in WWI and WWII .

I agree with your idea of holiday destinations , I favour a desert island in the company of a pretty girl , running naked on the beach , fishing for food or picking tropical fruits in the forest , swimming in tepid water and making love whenever the spirit moves me .

Sue, Berlin wall fell 25 years ago. Your spectrum of analysis between capitalist pigs and socialist lazy bastards is frankly out of date. Even Germany you're apparently taking as a strong player was a winner of the cold war and has done exactly what you seem to blame the EU for having done today (i.e. absorbing East germany and help them catching up to gain power and influence)
If questionning your big idea of having no government, no politicians and no society makes me a ferocious KGB member, sleeping under your bed with a bloody knife inbetween my teeth, I think you should reevaluate your criterias. You make me think of Don Quichotte in a holy war aginst gosts and witches with MacCarthy as your Sancho rider...
Frankly, if you've been working 35 years it's only fair that you give back some of your income to the society (how it is spend is an otheer question but the principle makes no doubt I should think). Your familly and friends, were they numbered in thousends, can't possibly have been the only ones financing your education, the one of your bosses and collegues, your health care and the research for your medications, your transportation to go to work on time (rail, roads, buses...) the police which helped you not being rubed and the armee which prevented your house from being bombed... Even the queen of England cannot afford all that herself and claim she managed it all on her own... are you richer?

Mathias

It would help if you read and understand Sue's comment before you write .
Sue has been paying all her taxes , social security for 35 years . I believe she is entitled to be unhappy when those taxes are being wasted , as they are on the vastly over expensive EU .

Sue, I hope for you that the Barclays Brothers are part of your familly and friends because thanks to Maggy the taxes of your hard-work lifetime probably helped them, rather than any Eurocrat, getting another yatch in Monaco's harbour! didn't you receive any postcard?

Mathias , Re my desert island , what's all this about ,relative to your wonderful EU ?
" I've never intended to spend holidays in the country of the perfidious queen of kitsch. I'd rather wonder in Versailles's gardens, toscany wineyards, sail in Konstanz Lake, smell the sent of orange trees in Granada's Alhambra, have a delicate hot chocolate in Viennas Cafés, a bath in Budapest renaissance spas or take a look at the ship in the horizon from Lisbons hills. But looking at Ryanairs and easyjets connections, english people do just the same. I guess they also prefer freestones than brick and timber... "

How is it that beyond Europhiles socialist image of the EU , they have never been able to persuade the majority of British people to the benefits of the EU ?
Why did the French and the Dutch vote against the EU constitution ? Why are referendums now banned in the EU , as per the Lisbon Treaty ? I believe that there are many more Eurosceptics than just the British . An EU wide referendum might even show that a majority of EU citizens are Eurosceptic . As things stand , the EU is principally beneficial to politicians , bureaucrats , the enormous Brussels EU steamroller , that aims to crush all dissent and nationalism .

One of the reasons Cameron might not be going for an immediate referendum , may be that the end is nigh for the EU , as Rumpy Pumpy says , " If the Euro fails , so will the EU "
To argue the merits you perceive in the EU , when it may already be in its death throws is rather pointless . The EU has been trying to emmulate the Soviet Union , that failed after 70yrs because it was bankrupt ; the EU is effectively bankrupt now . Socialism does not work in a colective system of states where many are not sufficiently wealth producing . The solvent Eurozone states would bankrupt themselves if they had to pay off the debts of the insolvent states .

Iwantout

Yes , Well said , that's exactly right !!!