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11 EU countries lose one MEP to make room for Croatia

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Published 14 March 2013, updated 05 April 2013
17 comments
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Croatia, Lisbon Treaty, MEPs

Eleven countries will each lose one seat in the European Parliament after the next elections to make room for Croatia, which is expected to join the EU on 1 July and will also forfeit one of the seats allocated to it. 

 

Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Latvia, Lithuania, Portugal and Romania would each lose one seat in the European Parliament after the EU elections, to be held between 22 and 25 May in all 28 member states.

The decision, agreed on Wednesday (13 March) was necessary to comply with the 751-seat limit set by the Lisbon Treaty and make room for Croatia, which will have 12 MEPs, one less than earlier projections.

Parliament currently numbers 754 MEPs. To bring the number in accordance with the Lisbon Treaty, Germany will lose three of its 99 seats, bringing its MEPs to 96, the maximum allowed by the Lisbon Treaty.

The allocation of seats for the 2014-2019 legislature should be based on objective criteria, says the resolution adopted by 536 to 111, with 44 abstentions. Demographic changes should be taken into account, while ensuring that "losses are limited to a maximum of one seat per member state", it adds.

Co-rapporteur Rafał Trzaskowski (European Peopel's Party, Poland) said that if lawmakers had taken a stricter approach, then some member states would have gained seats and others would have lost more than one.

“But could we realistically see a radical solution accepted either by this House or by the Council?" he questioned.

His co-rapporteur Roberto Gualtieri (Socialists and Democrats, Italy) called the decision "least imperfect of the possible solutions."

British MEP Andrew Duff (ALDE) argued that the rapporteurs had tried to be pragmatic, “but obviously, pragmatism is not perfection”.

"This experience teaches us that it is difficult to establish a mathematical formula that is clear and transparent just a year before the elections. Therefore this issue should be reopened at the Convention on Constitutional Reform envisaged to take place in 2015,” Duff said.

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  • Why were there 44 abstentions??? I have been reading recently about the glorious EU wishing to make public voting for the EU and it's MEP's mandatory. So why did 44 of these highly paid Europhiles decide that they didn't have to vote?
    If they want to make the Public vote then lets make these MEP's vote.

    By :
    Philip royle
    - Posted on :
    14/03/2013

  • @Phillip Royle: attending MEPs can chose abstention rather than voting yes or no. This abstention vote is recorded and carries a political meaning. Abstention is common practice in modern democracies, including in the UK House of Commons.

    By :
    JPG
    - Posted on :
    14/03/2013

  • JPG. Would you agree that an abstention is no vote. It says nothing except the owner of the vote has no interest in the people they are supposed to represent. It's a wasted vote, and counts for nothing. If you agree on an issue then you vote 'Yes' if you don't agree you vote 'No' What you shouldn't be allowed to do is vote 'Nothing'
    What is the 'Political meaning' of nothing?
    I agree this happens in the UK Parliament and I disagree with it happening there as well.

    By :
    Philip royle
    - Posted on :
    14/03/2013

  • @Philip royle: so that they can claim their daily allowance without the risk of being accused that they didn't work.

    The whole thing is ridiculous, pointless and doesn't make any sense. The parliament and the EU should be disbanded.

    By :
    NK
    - Posted on :
    16/03/2013

  • @Philip Royle & @NK
    I think you've missed the point of an informed democracy- What would you do if you agree with half of a proposal but not the other half?
    Should you vote against it all? Even though half would be really good and help people?
    Or bite your tongue and vote for all of it because it's the only way to achieve something.

    Let's try a real example:
    "I pledge to vote against any increase in fees in the next parliament and to pressure the government to introduce a fairer alternative"

    If the only option in front of you to bring in a fairer system which helps poor students, increase grants and maintain funding means charging some more- which way would you vote?
    That's not a cop out. That's not doing nothing just to claim an allowance. Of course you could be a UKIP MEP and not bother turning up and still get your salary anyway without the joys of going to Brussels.
    But then they did vote against the EU Budget cuts.

    @NK You mean disband the UK parliament I take it? Where more than half the parliamentarians aren't elected and our "Modern" democracy is one of the few in the world where the heads of the state Church sit by right.

    By :
    AllanSMW
    - Posted on :
    17/03/2013

  • AlanSMW. Thank you for replying to my post. I would still insist that an abstention is a wasted vote and means nothing. In a perfect world we would all agree on everything. But I think you'll agree we don't live in a perfect world and so have to make compromises. One of those compromises may have to include something we (I say we because the MEP's are supposed to represent us not their own beliefs or personal agenda) don't fully agree with. Remember these highly paid people are there to make decisions not to sit on a fence and wring their hands. Lets say in a vote there were 500 yes votes 200 no votes and 50 abstentions.
    What exactly is the abstentions going to achieve? Are the 500 going to say Oh! my god we have abstentions we have to change everything to suit them. Could the no votes point to the abstentions and shout 'Look abstentions the vote is not valid? No of course not the motion is carried and the the no votes and abstention count for nothing. Thats democracy isn't it? If a MP or MEP doesn't like something then he or she is in the perfect place to do something about it. They know what they have to vote on they have time before the vote to get support for change or whatever. Even after the vote they can campaign to change things within the paper. Is this not true?

    As for your example. Your saying because you have a 50/50 dilemma you should do nothing by not voting one way or the other. If it helped poorer students by increasing the fee's of people who can afford it then I would have no problem in voting yes. And I say that with the full knowledge of how much it costs to put two of my children through University without government help Personally I think there are to many student's learning to many hairy fairy things that do the country no good! But that just my personal opinion as a man who left school when I was 15 with no qualifications what so ever.

    There is very little democracy in the EU. Even in the Uk there are over 800,000 people per MEP. Have you ever tried to get hold of one? Don't bother I have and it's all but impossible. I have tried to contact several belonging to different parties over the years only one ever replied about my concerns.

    By :
    Philip royle
    - Posted on :
    17/03/2013

  • AlanSMW. Thank you for replying to my post. I would still insist that an abstention is a wasted vote and means nothing. In a perfect world we would all agree on everything. But I think you'll agree we don't live in a perfect world and so have to make compromises. One of those compromises may have to include something we (I say we because the MEP's are supposed to represent us not their own beliefs or personal agenda) don't fully agree with. Remember these highly paid people are there to make decisions not to sit on a fence and wring their hands. Lets say in a vote there were 500 yes votes 200 no votes and 50 abstentions.
    What exactly is the abstentions going to achieve? Are the 500 going to say Oh! my god we have abstentions we have to change everything to suit them. Could the no votes point to the abstentions and shout 'Look abstentions the vote is not valid? No of course not the motion is carried and the the no votes and abstention count for nothing. Thats democracy isn't it? If a MP or MEP doesn't like something then he or she is in the perfect place to do something about it. They know what they have to vote on they have time before the vote to get support for change or whatever. Even after the vote they can campaign to change things within the paper. Is this not true?

    As for your example. Your saying because you have a 50/50 dilemma you should do nothing by not voting one way or the other. If it helped poorer students by increasing the fee's of people who can afford it then I would have no problem in voting yes. And I say that with the full knowledge of how much it costs to put two of my children through University without government help Personally I think there are to many student's learning to many hairy fairy things that do the country no good! But that just my personal opinion as a man who left school when I was 15 with no qualifications what so ever.

    There is very little democracy in the EU. Even in the Uk there are over 800,000 people per MEP. Have you ever tried to get hold of one? Don't bother I have and it's all but impossible. I have tried to contact several belonging to different parties over the years only one ever replied about my concerns.

    By :
    Philip royle
    - Posted on :
    17/03/2013

  • @Philip
    I think we have a fundamental difference in our understanding of what an abstention means. I guess I live in a world where there is more than black and white (no comments on fifty shades of grey!).
    I would love, for example to have proportional representation and a "white vote" as they do in France. Why?
    In our system we have to choose, vote FOR the person we support, or actively AGAINST someone else (tactical voting). Failing this, we spoil our ballot paper. There is no options which say "I made the effort to vote but disapprove of all the candidates." because otherwise the politicians state "Nobody cares/they are happy with what we are doing so don't vote."

    The example on tuition was real- and you saw how the press and NUS attacked Liberal Democrats who achieved 4 out of the 5 things that the NUS had asked for...
    Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

    Which region are you in and what did you contact your MEPs about? If they don't respond, hold them to account- contact the local political party. I know that if mine doesn't reply he DOES get held to account- but like you, I know those from other parties haven't responded to me.
    I am in a different position though, I know a number of all parties and from other countries as I campaign to see the EU reformed. But strangely that get's me labelled as Pro-EU!

    By :
    AllanSMW
    - Posted on :
    17/03/2013

  • Alan, You may be right I do come from a very black and white world. As I said I left school on a Friday and started work on the following Monday at the age of 15 yrs. and I have been fortunate to have worked all my life.....until my retirement:)
    I never had the luxury of debating the political rights and wrongs of this and that. I was to busy working. Between you and me I think thats the only reason governments work, because the majority of the population are too busy working to notice whats going on until it's happened and then it's to late lol. But I digress.
    I come from an age where the vote was considered important, very important according to my grand father who was at the Somme. You voted and that was that. I fully understand the concept of abstentions, I just don't agree with it and thats it. I also understand the concept of tactical voting I myself voted 'Monster Raving loony party' once. But it was a vote and not a blank piece of paper that said, I couldn't make my mind up.
    I was one of the people who voted for us to join the 'Common Market' It is the only time I can fully remember voting, and I've voted a few times! If I had known what the Common Market was going to turn in to it would have been a NO vote. Do you think if I had abstained it would have made any difference? lol.
    I come from the North West and I have tried to contact all MEP's in that region, and beyond on various issues. Only one responded and it happened to be a UKIP MEP. Now before you get on your soap box the same E-mail was sent to other MEP's so they all had the chance to reply. Have you ever made a complaint to the EU? Have you ever tried to contact Ms Ashton or any of the unellected commissioners?. Out of all the contacts I have instigated with the EU and it's multitude of departments only the EU Court of Auditors, and the Ukip MEP have been the only ones to reply. I know what your thinking ''whinging old git' But I'm not Just a few enquires and questions nothing controversial or me ranting. Just civil questions. Anyway thats enough.

    p.s. you do sound a tad pro EU lol.

    By :
    Philip royle
    - Posted on :
    17/03/2013

  • I am in a different position to yourself in many ways, and I agree- where someone fails to pay attention or make an effort and abstains, that is a failing on them.
    But we do have to remember that MEPs, like MPs and councillors are lay people. Some will be like yourself with no academic background, or indeed in some cases no other supporting background. There will be times when, best will in the world, they simple don't understand. How should they vote then?
    That's the joys of a democracy as opposed to a meritocracy!

    As to the MEPs, I am sad that they did not respond. I've never had an issue, and like I said, if you have an issue and get no response then DO tackle their party about it. e.g. http://www.northwestlibdems.org.uk/

    In my case it's not a fair comparison. As an elected Councillor, Baroness Ashton lives in my area and I've met personally at least 4 of the commissioners either before or since their elevation.
    But like I said, I agree EU has some positives, some negatives. We can argue back and forth as to whether the costs out weigh the benefits, eg "Would there have been another war without the EU." or UK in a global world where we are simply a minnow compared to China which has provinces bigger than us which most people have never heard of.
    We can point out that actually it's the Ministers in the Council of the European Union, sent by our governments who help make the decisions yet we never hear about it in the UK press.

    In this particular vote all the Abstentions were "rebels" and a lot of Austrians it seems:
    http://www.votewatch.eu/en/composition-of-the-european-parliament-with-a-view-to-the-2014-elections-motion-for-a-resolution-vot.html

    By :
    AllanSMW
    - Posted on :
    17/03/2013

  • AlanSMW thank you for replying to my post. As my grandfather use to say Politicians only deserve our scorn and miss trust. They still have the power but it keeps them in check!
    I would doubt you assertion that MEP'S tend to be lay people. A great many of them are professional politicians and well versed in all matters political. I mean how much does it cost to keep a UKIP MEP? around €2,000,000 a year. Thats a lot of help to answer e-mails. As for Ms Ashton I was once told the day she was promoted from licking envelopes to being in charge of paper clips was the day she was over promoted. She is probably a very nice person though.
    However she, and I may be wrong, has never been elected to anything anywhere. So how has she got to where she is? Democracy, just have to love it. Mind you she is not much better that most of the Eu Commissioners. They also seem to be hand picked by member governments. By the time my vote gets to the EU it's so wartred down as to be nothing.
    But you seem a reasonable man so I apologise for my mini rant. I probably have to much time on my hands and should really put the key board down. Unfortunately the more I read of the EU and Brussels the more convinced I am that the UK should be no part of it or at least keep it at arms length.
    I have a few paranoid theories.
    Why is the Government cutting the armed forces to the bone?
    Why is the Government cutting the Police to the bone?
    Why is the government cutting the NHS this way and that?

    To pave the path to the EU taking over Eu armed forces. Eu police and EU health service? Is my paranoia showing..... sorry gone a bit far off the topic.lol

    By :
    Philip royle
    - Posted on :
    17/03/2013

  • There is a saying that "We get the politicians we deserve." I've held publicly elected office in the UK for 8 years and I would say that I am treated better in other countries than I am in the UK. From the person who calls me at 2am and expects me to deal with their non-urgent issue through to the Press who only want to report the negatives and not the positives where I've actually worked with people from the other parties to DO something for our residents.
    The long hours for little money, a county councillor in Herts has day time meetings for £10k a year, is why I can't be a career politician even if I had wanted to be (if I changed parties I could almost assuredly double or triple that, but I am not that kind of politician).
    So yes, treat them with scorn and mis-trust, but then don't be surprised with the result.

    Sorry, not sure where the €2m number for a UKIP MEP comes from or what it includes so can't comment on that.

    With Ms Ashton has held elected positions according to her wikipedia profile, albeit not publicly elected office. But remember what I said, the UK parliament has more un-elected members than elected. When we campaigned to change this it was blocked by Tory and Labour, despite them claiming they wanted reform.
    Interestingly the UK is in a minority in how we run our government as far as I'm aware. Our Ministers are picked BY AND FROM the parliament, where as most other countries are picked BY the parliament, but could be anyone. The result?
    We rely far more heavily on Civil Servants who are there regardless.
    And that's the thing- would electing the UK EU-Commissioner help at all? I've just been looking at the leaflet with my tax bill where our PCC has his photo no less than 5 times on the cover and he alone is supposed to represent over 1m people with no special skills other than being elected. At least under the old Police Authorities (which I admit I have both worked, and sat on) it was made up of 17 people where 16 could block the random outlandish suggestion.

    And I would not consider your discourse at all a rant. It's been interesting to hear, and respond to the issues and concerns. Some politicians do take on the thoughts.

    As to EU, it's the same as any organisation, it's what you make of it and the UK has always been schizophrenic as to how it wishes to be engaged, or not.
    Bare in mind there is no pro-EU press in UK, and they've had to write retractions, (buried several pages in compared to the front page gibberish) many times.
    There's been some incredible Euromyths over the years.

    As to the Government cuts vs EU- who funds the EU? There is no NATO armed forces, or EU armed forces, or UN armed forces- they're made up of our armed forces.
    There is no EU Police or Interpol force. All of these things are networks with a few people bringing the groups together.
    Honestly can't think of an NHS equivalent other than maybe the EIHC (the old E111!).

    The truth with the cuts is simple to see if you look at tax take vs expenditure. The UK government in the last years of Labour was spending £4 and taking tax of £3. The rest was made of debt. There is NO paradigm where this could carry on forever. Trust me, I've spent 18 months unemployed from local government where I understood the need, even if it hurt me personally!
    The bigger issue coming down the line is pensions- why do you think there are moves to make pension schemes automatic.

    Off topic is only truly off when we are no longer learning.

    By :
    AllanSMW
    - Posted on :
    18/03/2013

  • Alan, thank you for your reply. I would agree we do get the politicians we deserve. But it could also follow that the politicians get the public they deserve? I didn't realise you were a county councillor, I do agree with you that most, of county councillors are lay people. I have known a couple of friends who entered council politics on their retirement. So I apologise for my generalisation.

    As for the way we British treat out political masters. I think we have to look at the masters, after all they are in charge and no one makes them do it. Take Hampshire your county. A quick search brings me three of your senior unelected chief officers Andrew Smith ( I believe is under investigation) John Coughian and Jon Pittam all earning more than the Prime Minister of the UK ( I again have to apologise these names and figures come from 2010 and are probably out of date, but just treat them as an example) How can councillors agree to pay people to run a county and pay them more than the PM who runs a country. This fact alone must have quite a few rate payers scratching their heads

    As for how your treated in the UK? Well I live in Spain and believe me you are better treated that any politician local or central here. I will simply say, if someone had all the politicians seated in one place and you said "Would the politician who is not presently being investigated for corruption please stand up" There wouldn't be much movement!
    From the top of my house I can see for about 10 miles all around. In that ten miles we have four Mayors and four councils. All being paid. Remember Mayors here and on the continent have real power, they virtually have the council cheque book in their back pocket.
    Believe me the British have much to learn about corruption from the EU! I could tell you stories that would make your hair stand on end!
    As for the EU did you know that there is only one MEP for over 800,000 people in the UK, how many do you represent? I bet it's no where near that amount. There are over 6000 Eurocrats working for the EU in Brussels only 750 are elected and only 74(?) are British. I think the EU deserves all the bad press it gets. I also have to wonder why there is no 'Pro EU' press in the UK. It's strange that there is not one single paper that I read, and I read about six per day as well as news feeds, that has anything good to say about the EU?
    The €2,000,000 for a UKIP MEP Nigel Farage in 2009. He stated he has received 2,000,000 in expenses over and above his salary while serving as an MEP.
    Police commissioners. Straight from the continent and as a retired officer myself a very worrying development that obviously does not have the publics backing. As you quite rightly say Before policing had some form of democracy, Now it has non!
    The EU does have a Police force of about 800 officers who have an investigative mandate from the EU. Think there housed in Luxembourg and have a Welsh man as the current boss Rob Wainwright. They, as I understand have no powers....as yet!
    The NHS, Eu drug purchases? treatment centres for specialist illnesses all over the EU ? Is it such a leap?
    I have only just started to take an interest in politics, mainly EU and to be honest some of the things I read scare the hell out of me. And I don't only read the UK press. Believe it or not There are Euroskeptic's in Spain who are just a vocal as they are in the UK. I have a sister in law who has lived in France for over 40 years and it's much the same there. From where I'm standing the EU dream lives only in the heads of a dwindling number of Europhiles.
    Sorry if I've missed any of your points It's rare I gat the chance to talk politics since I am the only English man I know! LOL
    P.S. I am in the throws of moving back to the UK!

    By :
    Philip royle
    - Posted on :
    18/03/2013

  • Alan, thank you for your reply. I would agree we do get the politicians we deserve. But it could also follow that the politicians get the public they deserve? I didn't realise you were a county councillor, I do agree with you that most, of county councillors are lay people. I have known a couple of friends who entered council politics on their retirement. So I apologise for my generalisation.

    As for the way we British treat out political masters. I think we have to look at the masters, after all they are in charge and no one makes them do it. Take Hampshire your county. A quick search brings me three of your senior unelected chief officers Andrew Smith ( I believe is under investigation) John Coughian and Jon Pittam all earning more than the Prime Minister of the UK ( I again have to apologise these names and figures come from 2010 and are probably out of date, but just treat them as an example) How can councillors agree to pay people to run a county and pay them more than the PM who runs a country. This fact alone must have quite a few rate payers scratching their heads

    As for how your treated in the UK? Well I live in Spain and believe me you are better treated that any politician local or central here. I will simply say, if someone had all the politicians seated in one place and you said "Would the politician who is not presently being investigated for corruption please stand up" There wouldn't be much movement!
    From the top of my house I can see for about 10 miles all around. In that ten miles we have four Mayors and four councils. All being paid. Remember Mayors here and on the continent have real power, they virtually have the council cheque book in their back pocket.
    Believe me the British have much to learn about corruption from the EU! I could tell you stories that would make your hair stand on end!
    As for the EU did you know that there is only one MEP for over 800,000 people in the UK, how many do you represent? I bet it's no where near that amount. There are over 6000 Eurocrats working for the EU in Brussels only 750 are elected and only 74(?) are British. I think the EU deserves all the bad press it gets. I also have to wonder why there is no 'Pro EU' press in the UK. It's strange that there is not one single paper that I read, and I read about six per day as well as news feeds, that has anything good to say about the EU?
    The €2,000,000 for a UKIP MEP Nigel Farage in 2009. He stated he has received 2,000,000 in expenses over and above his salary while serving as an MEP.
    Police commissioners. Straight from the continent and as a retired officer myself a very worrying development that obviously does not have the publics backing. As you quite rightly say Before policing had some form of democracy, Now it has non!
    The EU does have a Police force of about 800 officers who have an investigative mandate from the EU. Think there housed in Luxembourg and have a Welsh man as the current boss Rob Wainwright. They, as I understand have no powers....as yet!
    The NHS, Eu drug purchases? treatment centres for specialist illnesses all over the EU ? Is it such a leap?
    I have only just started to take an interest in politics, mainly EU and to be honest some of the things I read scare the hell out of me. And I don't only read the UK press. Believe it or not There are Euroskeptic's in Spain who are just a vocal as they are in the UK. I have a sister in law who has lived in France for over 40 years and it's much the same there. From where I'm standing the EU dream lives only in the heads of a dwindling number of Europhiles.
    Sorry if I've missed any of your points It's rare I gat the chance to talk politics since I am the only English man I know! LOL
    P.S. I am in the throws of moving back to the UK!

    By :
    Philip royle
    - Posted on :
    18/03/2013

  • It is not a Chicken and Egg argument. Politicians come from the public by definition. It's a question of who stands up.
    But we are in a society where I've heard young people use the excuse "We're told we're terrible, so we get to the point where we do as people expect as they always tell us that's what we do even when we don't.
    My own grandma crosses the road when I'm out with my mates- not because we've done anything just because there's 5 of us together."
    So it's a sad vicious cycle. The question is what does it take to change it?

    Why are they Political Masters? Leaders, yes, masters says that the balance is wrong.
    Hertfordshire, not Hampshire. It doesn't actually change the debate:
    Prime Minister- Lay member of the public, there by election with no requirement for qualifications, no requirement for experience.
    Council chief- Employed based on skills on a meritocratic basis, required to have relevant experience and qualifications.
    A council chief, unlike the Prime Minister, also doesn't get a Grace and Favour house etc.
    But let's put it in context. A supermarket manager with a few hundred staff can earn upto £80K+ 50% in bonuses and 7 weeks holiday(!)
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2011/jul/08/working-life-supermarket-manager
    So how much would you pay the Chief Executive of Hertfordshire with 4,000+ staff and a turn over in excess of £1bn?
    There will be bad people in all cases- the difference is that in the private sector they're just stopped from being directors or fined.

    Corruption wise there's also incompetence as well the UK has had to pay out for both...
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/8269828/Britain-faces-1bn-of-EU-fines.html

    In terms of Eurocrats, you either have lay people doing it (elected) or professionals who can actually do the job. How many MEPs would you want if more than 1 for 800,000? You can't reduce costs and then demand more representation. The analogy is that for Herts County Council covering 1 million odd people we have over 4000 bureaucrats of which just 77 are elected- that's a worse ratio!
    The £2m Farage claims hasn't actually been backed up by evidence and covers a 10 year period 1999-2009 with it actually covering staffing costs (which he chooses his wife...) and office costs. £200k a year to run an office in his constituency and one in Brussels only gives you 2-3 members of staff plus office costs etc.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/may/24/mps-expenses-ukip-nigel-farage

    Police Commissioners were forced through by the Conservatives, nothing to do with EU. To clarify, the EU police force is the equivalent of a specialist unit for the whole of the EU, 800 is less than we have covering Hertfordshire.
    EU funding for research in to specialist illnesses makes sense. Take for example my friend. She lives in Estonia and wants to become a heart specialist. With a population of 1.4m is it sensible to have more than one in the entire country? And when that person is ill? Far better to coordinate together.
    That's the whole point of the EU- work together when it makes sense to.
    Yes there are pro, and anti Europeans everywhere. The fear is throwing the baby out with the bath water.
    Also be wary of confirmation bias- especially if you use something like Google.
    The problem with the EU dream is that there's no clarity of what it is and for politicians and press it makes a useful scape goat. They quickly forget that their OWN ministers have to agree proposals and set the rules.
    Have a look at fullfact.org it looks at all UK "Claims" in the press and has some interesting information.
    http://fullfact.org/articles/eu_budget_who_gets_what-28580

    So good luck with the move, but think what you want to achieve when you campaign:
    Have people in charge of £1bn+ and 4,000+ staff which can kill people (eg Social Services) paid less than someone running a supermarket with a few hundred staff?
    Have more elected people (be it lay people or career politicians) instead of trained and qualified staff?
    Work as the UK in isolation as other regions an countries build their own trading, and political blocks?

    To be honest my biggest fear is our deficit as a country and trade debt coupled with our lack of savings and retirement etc.
    I'm 34.

    By :
    AllanSMW
    - Posted on :
    18/03/2013

  • Hi Allan. I think our post are getting to long I can't remember what I wrote about! Must try and keep them shorter.lol
    I'm sorry about the mistake in the county's. It's true you do need professional people to do a professional job. And you have to pay them a fair wage. Let me suggest this. If all the elected councils got together and put a cap on CEO wages say 100.000 a year with a max of say 10,000 in expenses. Who would apply? I would suggest the very same people who are presently employed for twice that amount. Where else are they going to find the work?
    I worked for a county council. Over the thirty years I saw senior management come and go. I saw the wheel reinvented so may times I couldn't count. Twice I saw the wheel turn full circle and old ways re invented a new. All at a cost to the rate payer. And in all those thirty years my work, the job I did hardly changed a bit. So I have to ask is part of a councils senior officers job to ensure their own existence? Could be you know after all they are professional and we do trust them. Just look at the chief of the NHS right now, a classic case if ever there was one. The problem in this day and age is no one, well hardly any one is held personally accountable for their own failings. From the top down to the bottom.

    By :
    Philip royle
    - Posted on :
    18/03/2013

  • I have seen the same in the private sector with the wheel... But at least I got profit share a Christmas bonus and overtime pay- all things I've never had in the public sector.
    In terms of private sector moves- where do you think some of the managers who've made redundant have gone? I was offered a five figure pay rise to move to the private sector back in 2007 and turned it down for my "safe job" in the public sector (where I got made redundant with my team in 2011!).
    Some do move to the private sector as, ignoring the pay, there's less scrutiny in the public- think about the growth of private sector contractors. Just look at the loss of lawyers, planners etc to private sector.
    As to CEO expenses- I seriously don't know of any getting more than £2,000 including their accommodation when going to conferences.

    By :
    AllanSMW
    - Posted on :
    18/03/2013

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