Britain's opt-out on EU police and crime laws raises eyebrows

So Cameron is protecting "The City" from EU police action.

When, not if, Britain takes an exit a source of much tension will vanish and the EU can get down to the business of centralizing those powers that are needed to ensure the remaining member states can be kept competing in constructive ways; i.e. play by rules made, known and agreed to in advance.

Statewatch has posted useful, detailed articles about this, by Prof Steven Peers

http://www.statewatch.org/analyses/no-199-uk-opt-out.pdf
http://www.statewatch.org/analyses/no-168-eu-uk-opt-out.pdf
http://www.statewatch.org/news/2009/jun/uk-ireland-analysis-no-4-lisbon-opt-outs.pdf

It is interesting to read the English Bar Council response to this
http://www.barcouncil.org.uk/media-centre/news-and-press-releases/2012/october/bar-council-calls-for-consultation-on-government-plans-to-opt-out-of-eu-criminal-justice-measures/
... the UK's opt out can only relate to measures established before the Treaty of Lisbon came into force in 2009...

Another disturbing behaviour of the UK. Why do not the UK simply pull out of the EU entirely?

@ Paul posted Another disturbing behaviour of the UK. Why do not the UK simply pull out of the EU entirely? unquote.

Disturbing? really! Please do explain. Why not pull out of the EU entirely? I think Paul you will find that could be on the cards.

UK-septic said The thing is they can't. so they moan endlessly but that's about everything they do, and will do for many more centuries to come! unquote

Get a grip dear, this post is about whether we should take part in " EU justice and crime cooperation laws" which we have a right to opt out from, as per the Lisbon Treaty. It is not about whether we stay in the EU or whether we negotiate with the EU terms and conditions which more reflect the wishes of the British people. Most UK posters on these forums will be aware of UK-septic's Rabid views towards the UK and USA. I don't know what he has been smoking but his views as to whether we can or can't leave the EU are just that one persons view. It will of course be the British people who will in the end decide without any assistance from across the channel.

George Mc

@UKskeptic has commented on: "Britain's opt-out on EU police and crime laws raises eyebrows":

"George, Ridiculous! English people can choose to be longer fooled on as
they've already been for 40 years, staying out to then get in and then stay
in to choose opting out there or there... you just try your best to look like
out, just in... that only proves you have no choice but to stay locked in
dependancy, whatever you fancy believing.

I have read this post three times and I have lost the will to live trying to understand it. Can you post in French and I will use Google translate to see I can make more sense of it - thank you

George Mc

@UKskeptic

"It's difficult to explain, I have to say:

1. UK stays out
2. UK gets in
3. UK opts-out
4. UK get out...

don't you feel sort of blocked somehow? What's next?

Well Ukskeptic that’s 3 x Outs versus 1 x In so that's not promising for the UK Europhiles.
The next EU meeting will be about the 2014-2020 budget. I would love to be a fly on the wall as it is going to be an excellent Bun fight.

The UK Government tonight lost a vote in the House of Commons where an advisory vote said that not only should the budget be frozen but it should be cut. Labour opportunist MPs joined with Eurosceptic Conservatives and the Democratic Unionist Party MPs(Northern Ireland). On Europe Mr Cameron is between a rock and a hard place from now on. It will however be interesting to see how Labour react, as they are mainly pro Europe, but as demonstrated today would sell their beliefs it they thought it would get them elected.

You ask what is next? Well UKskeptic (or is it Mathias?) maybe the best way forward for the UK is to flatten the decision making process and return decisions like law and order, border control, human rights, fishing and agriculture, banking etc. etc. to the national level. If our friends in Europe are not prepared to allow this under the rules then let us negotiate in the friendliest possible way a new agreement or our exit from the EU. Under Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty, the EU is required to negotiate an alternative deal with any state that gives notice of its intention to leave.

I can see how difficult this will be for Europe as they need to move forward and sort their problems. The introduction of the Euro was mismanaged from its inception and to fix it will require banking and political union. Many in Britain feel threatened by this and fear what may become of them if they get swallowed up and diluted in a Federal state which has 500 million heading to 600 million people.

I hope that the negotiations will allow us to have a Semi Detached relationship with the EU. We can always rejoin EFTA but I am quite interested in the agreement that Switzerland has. They are in EFTA but their electorate rejected EEA membership on a referendum and they have a stand alone agreement with Brussels. I have yet to be bothered to check it out, but I believe that they don't pay huge amounts of money to Brussels either.

In the past the British Government could have ignored this problem and hoped that it would go away. This time I feel a hardening of attitudes when I talk with people and It is my view that it will have to come to a head one way or another!

Now I know that you will be concerned with this poor attitude and wish to interogate us as to what the future really holds. Please don't worry we will go forward in our own very British way.

George Mc

In fact the british are spending the whole dinner at the hotel complaining about the bed in the room, the view from the terrasse, the service at the reception and finally they leave outraged, refusing to spend any minute longer in such a place to come back the next day and ask if it's ok for them to sleep in the stables?

UKskeptic,

Is Switzerland less diluted among 500 million people than EU members?

Yes UKskeptic, absolutely. The EU is a big trading club for them but they retain their independence and sovereignty.

However before you get too excited remember what it is that you want us to retain membership of:

1. A club where 17 of the 27, the Euro area, account for 71% of the unemployed.
2. A Euro area where the debt to GDP ratio is 90%.
3. A Euro area where they have been walking a very high tight rope wire, hoping that it is going to be okay without a safety net.
4. A Euro area that is waiting for Merkel to get re elected before she has the courage to tell the German people that she is going to back all the “basket case” countries like Spain and Italy.
5. Will Germany back the ECB?

6. Or UKskeptic is she being very German and keeping her cards close to her chest while she decides whether to dump the whole project and resurrect the D mark?
7. Or will the markets lose patience before the German elections and break the ECB for you?

If 6 happens will the Euro and the EU survive?
If 7 happens will the EU survive?

None of the above would be particularly helpful for the UK but I feel we will in the long term be better out of club.

George Mc

Should I also remind you that despite the 150 milion PIGS (plus slovakia, slovenia, estonia...) the Eurozone alltogether with the resting 150 milions (france Germany austria benelux and Finland) is still significantly richer per inhabitant than the UK which also has big disparities between south east england and regions around Liverpool / Leeds or Cornwalls (not much better looking than slovakia... therefore the Eu subsides them the same!)

@UKskeptic, quote

1. the Euro zone is more than 75% of the EU's GDP and population. So your figures seem rather to show unemployment is worse outside the Euro zone if the latter only has 70% of EU's unemployment.
Unquote

The EU population is about 502 million with the Euro Zone being 333 million which is 66% of the total. I say again that the Euro zone accounts for 71% of the over 25 million unemployed.

You say Quote
The UK's public debt is exploding as not many EU members for the last couple of years.
Unquote
For your assistance I quote the latest debt to GDP figures that I can find for Quarter 1 2012.
UK 86.4%
France 89.2%
Germany 81.6%
Italy 123.3%
Spain 72.1% (surprisingly)

I think UKskeptic that you are like a politician and like a little licence to embellish so don't believe all the deep and dark websites that you visit. Try and stick to the better Newspapers and official sites.

You say quote
3. it's always been working step by step.
Unquote

UKskeptic that will be fine then, the markets will wait another 2 or three years. The Euro zone is a real dynamic club then?

You say quote
The Euro's demise has already been predicted several times in your country but so far never followed of success.. unquote

This is really hard to handle UKskeptic, let me tell you why. When the Euro was launched Politicians, Economists and Business people said “We think there is a structural problem here” and someone (I can't remember who) explained for simple people like as follows:

It is like all your neighbours deciding that they get on so well that they will all use the same Bank Account. They all pay their salary in to this bank and as they earn very different amounts of money and have many ranges of personal debt they agree not to take out more than they earn. Some of the neighbours get a bit carried away at Christmas Time and take holidays outside their earning potential. At the end of the year the Bank Manager writes to them all to inform them that they are so badly overdrawn that they must pay it all back immediately, sell their houses and close the account.

Now UKskeptic please excuse my overly simplistic little explanation but can you tell me how this is substantially different from what the Euro Zone has done. So please excuse all those Brits who said it would all end in tears. The trouble is we are fast running out of Kleenex tissues (only the best for you) and need the Euro Zone to extract their collective fingers as their collective incompetence has affected more than just the Euro Zone. I also feel that this is a good enough explanation as to why many of us wish to leave the EU. After all if after 50 years all we have to show for the project is potential bankruptcy then it could be a good time to sail off around the world to engage with others about future business, with the 8 billion £pounds sterling neatly tucked into our hip pocket to help grease the great causes of business.

You say quote
Should I also remind you that despite the 150 milion PIGS (plus slovakia, slovenia, estonia...) the Eurozone alltogether with the resting 150 milions (france Germany austria benelux and Finland) is still significantly richer per inhabitant than the UK which also has big disparities between south east england and regions around Liverpool / Leeds or Cornwalls (not much better looking than slovakia... therefore the Eu subsides them the same!)

UKskeptic you are an 'I' missing it should be PIIGS and I suspect that that one is Italy which really is the Elephant in the room.

The UK like many countries has areas of the country which are not doing as well as others but I am not sure what you mean by the EU subsidising them all as we are a net contributor so any subsidy is just us getting our own money back.

George Mc

@ Charles_M

Your Post on UKskeptic. You have summed up correctly the situation! I will resist the temptation to engage in the future. Many thanks

George Mc