British veto threat on the EU budget ‘very dangerous’

The almost authoritarian haste to further integrate Europe is eroding democratic legitimacy. Administrative expediencies are progressively replacing inconvenient accountabilities and legitimacy, which only hampers the siren song of these new Pied Pipers.

The essence of UK opposition is less about Europe as such, but to a gutted, authoritarian, bureaucratic entity devoid of meaning, and democratic process. Is this truly what Europeans want?

Integrate in haste, repent at leisure.

Terreverte: it's true that with the Mps expenses, murdoch's mafia and all the corruption happening between the City and Whitehall, the British can legitimatly claim not to understand the scandalous untransparency of the european administration in Brussels.

As for democracy, who complains in the UK for not being let electing anyone in Washington's Congress or agreeing on a distribution of votes in UK-US summits, not even mentioning organising a referendum for the decisions such a summit would make? As a democratical base, a 3-minute phone call twice a year from the State Department to nb 10 seems more than enough for the British to freely become America's docile poodle, fight for their illegal wars, falsify documents, organise a couple of suicides and generally feel proud of it!

I guess you are right, the UK and the rest of the continent definitly don't share the same understanding of democracy and sovereignty for their own people! But unfortunatly, it is your american same masters who won't ever let you get out of the EU, as they financed and encouraged the political union of Europe (with the gold they stole you in WW2), as well as forced you since Suez to abandon your Empire and join us instead. In slavery, the more you beg America for crumbs, the less you get!

The European concept is broken, how can an organisation that can't even get its accounts audited expect an above inflation budget increase when people across Europe are suffering from falling incomes and benefits.

The net cost of the EU budget to Britain in 2011 was £10.8 billion and they also had an annual trade deficit of £42bn with other EU members, but a positive trade balance with the rest of the world. If you were in the UK would you not be wondering whether membership of the club is worth it?

As a Southern European who now lives and works in the UK, i think it is inevitable they will eventually hold a referendum on membership as there is no doubt more and more of them are fed up with what they see as being governed from Brussels and not Westminster and am sure the majority would vote to leave.

For Cameron he needs to keep the budget increase at not more than inflation as citizens of the UK I do not think are prepared to pay anymore and as a democracy he should be listening to what British voters want. I am just surprised that there are not more countries refusing to fund the increase.

I see the latest reports state that even the Liberal Democrat coalition partners in the UK government (the pro EU party in the UK) are reported as agreeing to veto the suggested EU budget. How can anyone expect an increase in expenditure to be passed when we are all making major cuts in our national and household budgets.

Cameron has used the veto once and the World did not collapse why should he not do so again, it certainly would be extremely popular here.

In response to UKskeptics babble, Britain should screw the EU for every penny it can get, and offer as little as possible in return. You want us out, we want out, so what's your problem?

UIK sceptic. Europe is a non state. Are you stateless?
The fact is any nation has the right to self determination, and without sniping people like you.
Most people in the UK demand a referendum and have the right to one. I agree to that right. Only pro Europe antti democrats object to that. No Gov't or Gov'ts will stop that.

George,
I do know that throughout Europe Eurosceptism is growing. If the EU was run like a proper state it would be bankrupt by now. But we see the fat cats in the EU Parliament voting for a huge rise from member States, but major member states are refusing to pay a higher than inflation rise. Time for them to tighten their belts. Maybe we can start by cutting huge grant to inefficient peasant farmers. Time for them to come into our universe.

John H., States in many continental european countries appear far stronger than in the UK: it would be on the continent absolutly unthinkable in any country to privatise the police, as it was planned (but failed) during the Olympics in Britain. France's seat at the UN security Council isn't just the back office of another member, as GBs representation strangely votes 85% of resolutions just like another member... The french army chief of staff neither follows the US in wars everytime Washington orders, nor is France renting the nuclear weapons from America (like Trident deterrent program), but has its own. Their justice, as any european one wouldn't be so keen at interfering in the production of falsifyied documents or the organisation of weird suicides, just for their country to please the Congress whenever the US are buisy fighting illegal wars.

Such a foreign media empire like Rupert Murdoch's Fox-Sky-Sun press would never be welcome on european territory to structure the political debate. The economy is also shaped by far stronger states in Europe than in the UK since Thatcher and public services haven't become as weak as in Britain (high speed railway, strategic assets, social protection, industrial investments...) which provides continentals with a much more stable economic environment. Berlin, Paris or Rome haven't yet capitulated in favour of off-shore bankers in the Caiman Islands, as London has in relation to the City. Public debt is exploding in the UK and private debt is a world record. Therefore countries such as France, Germany or even Italy, though being part of the Eurozone and all the rest, seem to have managed retaining much more sovereignty and state power than the UK, which strategic assets have long been sold out to the Pentagone, Wall Street, Hollywood and Las Vegas.

But the EU isn't a state. It's a very new and original form of political unit, that hasn't yet been observed in history (just like the nation-state hadn't been 300 years ago in Britain/France). But so far it seems to match effectively todays global challenges, much better anyway than the faded Nation-States ever could. As it goes, the Eu does happen to be a modern model of governance and an increasing source of inspiration for many countries and continents all around the world.

You can always call for any referendum (which I strongly support the holding of anyway), and ask the british people if they better fancy changing whichever word in their constitution, that's not going to make any difference what so ever in fact, regarding their growing dependency to an ever-more-united continent and the lack of alternative for Britain, whether economically or politically (it merely will deprive them of any influence in the decision-making process). And I don't see any reason, the next day Britain leaves the EU, why the Euroskeptic Tories would all of a sudden find a way alone in the world, and eventually stop blaming the nasty europeans for their own demise. On the contrary, their moaning and frustration would even increase more when, after getting in-with-opt-outs, they realise their only choice is to go out-with-opt-ins...

Growth in the |UK is 1%. Not in France and you mention Italy. A state rife with criminals from the top down.
I can remember when many were murdered in France during the Algerian war of Independence. Don't talk of justice. The problem is that (The UK included)the socialists are'nt socialists but careerists. Champagne socialist. Hitler used that word socialist to win public support. So did Stalin and Mussolini. It is such a misused word to win public support. You are what you are in deeds not grand words and theories.

Maybe the EU wouldn't be such a nightmare if France quit. I would trust anyone else but the French, who never miss an opportunity for self agrandissement at someone elses cost. De Gaulle the ingrate snake and anglophobe lives on in that respect. However, as France is hardly likely to leave its own "cosa nostra" then the UK will willingly depart.

John H., I have no idea what all this has to do with Britain's membership of the EU. State investments in trains, health, schools or else are famously lower in Britain than in continental Europe and the state is much weaker. That's very well known, whether you fancy high speed rail or not.

Britain has only existed for 300 years. The English nation existed before but the French nation did too. The only difference being that it wasn't a popular idea and only became a meaningful reference for people in the 19th century, anywhere in Europe. But before 300 years, may I remind you anyway that France, Austria (germany didn't exist), Russia or even Spain were great powers of Europe while England in population as economy or military, was about the same as Denmark!).

The US merely got involved in the war at the end. America was selling weapons to Hitler until 1942, for them to destroy England, and the Nazi theses weren't that rejected by the US's then black-discriminating state... Anyway France did well as they weren't bombed like most of england, and as they didn't lose as many people as in the first world war, but ended up 10 years afterwards just like before, like germany, richer and more powerful than England (who had to beg the IMF for survival still in the 70's)

I guess you have never opened a french newspaper to imagine they could be worse than british tabloïds. Only italians may compete with you on that. Have a look on the internet at Le Monde, Suededeutsche Zeitung, der Standaart, or others... unless you don't bother speaking foreign languages.

The murders in Algeria were never ordered by a foreign nation. It's lucky you like americans because whether you trust them or not, they posess you and you go just the way they'll tell you to go. France, whether trusting or not America, doesn't become as a result their slave poodle. Whoever might be their friend, the french have another idea of their own sovereignty than the British!

I remember visiting France as a boy in the 1960's. It certainly existed just as UKskeptic says, but it was a land of peasants, primitive sanitation, parochial values and just plain backward, still being rebuilt with Marshall plan money (shock horror from the US). Today it sits in the shadow of Germany, at Merkel's beck and call, how ironic. I wonder why today so many French professionals emigrate - many to the UK - if its such a paradise. I am sure Hollande will extend the mediocrity even more.

To john Hurst,

If you want some unrecorded info on Ford fascism as one who served an apprenticeship at Fords I could possibly fill you in with some interesting information, that though undocumented, can be verified.

Here though to say more than that company was/is awash in fascists would be getting off target and abusing the space freely provided for this forum.

UK PMIs for October - out Friday - will finally show UK decoupled from Eurozone - Manufacturing above 50, Services above 54 (City of London). This time we will not squander excess wealth from City on tax cuts or no value added public services. We will finally rebuild our manufacturing industry through grants & infrastructure improvements - We did it before when we had to produce 10,000 plus Lancaster & Halifax heavy bombers in WW2 from 1942 - 1945 - we will do it again and then leave the European Union.
I acturally like Europe and can understand some sort of European shared identity- Paris pretty just to walk around, Vienna Horse drawn carriage ride puts the whole city into perpective (like the Ferris Wheel aswell) but I think most British people are FED UP TO THE BACK TEETH with endless summits in Brussels and just want to get back to what it was like before 1973 when we had warm summers and Ashes cricket matches against Australia etc. etc.

@John Hurst

quote We don't want to dominate Europe but we don't want Europe dominating us. Unquote

You are absolutely correct. The world debt problem and the EU overspending has put the Euro in a bad place. To correct this problem they need to speed up the Euro Federalists pet project and move close to being the USofE.

That is something that the UK never bargained for and it is many steps too far. If protecting our own Sovereignty means that we are going to severely piss of the EU, then so be it! There is indeed another problem that I see in the future and that is the agreements that we have signed with France regarding defence. This may not please our old friend Ukseptic but hands up anyone who trusts them?

George Mc

Stan THE man, It's just that in 1973 it had been 15 years that british trade was decreasing in the world to the point of almost vanishing, without Britain being in the EU. The strategy you are talking about failed with the previous attempt to balance out the UK's losses worldwide through EFTA, so that Britain HAD NO CHOICE economically but to integrate with Europe, and in so doing avoid showing up ragged at cricket matches.

The vestiges of the empire you are talking about were the last stragglers in 1973 with a constant decay following the insular strategy you refer to and which led the UK to beg the IMF after recording systematically lower growth rates than its neighbours, year after year, during the Uniting Continent's more prosperous golden 50's, 60's and 70's. Misery became so appearent across the Channel, people started wondering whether, in its out-dated Splendid Isolation (out of Europe because too busy trading with a collapsing empire), Britain had become the first developed economy to turn under-developed.... Afterwards such mental landmarks as the criket matches you are missing so much, have anyway been completely eradicated by Thatcher's revolution and Australia has long been trading in the Pacific, quite logically for them with South-East Asia, Japan and the US.

The British may be wanting to turn back the clock, reshape world maps, or wish to colonise Mars, but it isn't going to happen just by leaving the EU. There would hardly be any change in fact, but consequently there would be just as much, if not more frustration and complaints (like yours now blaming "endless european summits" while the UK doesn't seem to be much facilitating their conclusions, being already half-out). For their economic, geographical, historical dependency on the continent isn't a question of international law or religious faith but a question of factual globalisation, in a multipolar world trading freely within each continental block, maybe Britain plans actually to become a whole continent by itself then, outside the EU?

I'm afraid the tweed you'll be by then showing off at cricket matches won't be of the best quality... Unless someone finds and explains to the british voters/workers/households where exacty this credible plan B lies, free of EU dependancy, and how much cheaper it is. Why isn't anybody communicating this much better project of alternative agreement(s), negociated elsewhere in the world (where they can't wait for the so "FED UP" british people to simply leave the single market)? If that truly were what the british economy could do, Why is no one given any detail about this wonderful opportunity outside the EU, paved with gold especially for the UK, to finally release the island from the idea that it depends today more on Europe 20 miles away than anywhere else across the oceans?

I think I could write to you about the same thing, unless every other times we've been already talking together, you'd be writing in english as a native speaker.

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