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Britain and EU: The worst is yet to come, so let’s be smart

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Published 19 December 2012, updated 02 January 2013

Britain appears increasingly disinterested in Europe, mostly because it does not want to take part in the solution to the eurozone crisis. European leaders appear less willing to factor in Britain’s interests, especially within the Council, argues Vivien Pertusot.

Vivien Pertusot is head of office in Brussels for the French Institute of International Relations (Ifri).

"2012 has been an uncomfortable year for the British coalition government on EU issues. It has been trying to save face before its domestic audience, while appearing increasingly out of touch with EU’s dynamics.

2013 will be a stranger year. On the one hand, Britain will celebrate its 40th anniversary within the European Community/Union. On the other hand, it will be working hard on its “Review of the Balance of Competences between the United Kingdom and the European Union” that many call the first step toward targeting policies to “repatriate”.

This review has received little attention so far outside Britain. In light of recent and upcoming disputes between the UK and its EU partners, as well as a growing demand for clarification over what the UK wants, a closer look is necessary. Its impact and the dynamic it will create can be consequential.

The review was part of the coalition agreement. The wording was ambiguous enough to raise suspicion. It mentioned in the same point that there would be “no further transfer of sovereignty or powers over the course of the next Parliament”, and that there would be a review of competences. The Liberal Democrats probably managed to strip the agreement of any mention of repatriation.

It was also odd that in July, William Hague authored the foreword of the Fresh Start Project’s Green Paper – a project whose aim is to assess EU policies, and determine which ones the UK could repatriate – just a few days before officially launching the review in front of Parliament.

In fairness, he wrote the foreword as a member of Parliament and announced the review as Foreign Secretary. Yet his views on the EU are an open secret.

The review is now shaping up. A small team within the Foreign Office coordinates the contributions from various cabinets across Whitehall. A calendar has detailed the process over four semesters and every semester an interim report will be published up until autumn 2014.

The outcome is again unclear. British officials are wary to say that it will not put forward policy recommendations; it will be a mere open consultation. Obviously, British players will exploit it. The Tories and UKIP will take it to argue in favour of repatriation of powers – if not withdrawal – in the field of social and fishery policy for instance.

The Liberal Democrats and the Labour party will try to use it to bring about an informed debate on the EU. Many news organisations will seek “newsworthy” nooks and crannies out of it that will probably bolster the Eurosceptic agenda. The City and business associations are likely to fall on both sides of the argument depending on the issue.

What is certain is that continental Europe should not look away from this debate. The relationship between London and its European partners is at an all-time low on EU affairs.

Britain appears increasingly disinterested, mostly because it does not want to partake in the solution to the eurozone crisis. European leaders appear less willing to factor in Britain’s interests, especially within the Council.

Angela Merkel and Mario Monti have taken up the issue of Britain and the EU publicly; undoubtedly some more will in the coming months.

Moreover, disputes on the EU are not over – EU multi-annual budget negotiations, the banking union etc. All sides have legitimate concerns, but it is important to realise how that can play out within the British domestic debate in light of 2014 European elections, but more importantly 2015 general elections.

The review may be a fig leaf to put off a referendum that seems inevitable around 2016-2017, but each report could strengthen the opposition against the EU. Most continental Europeans will find it striking that none of the two major parties is today pro-European in the way we understand it – that is in favour of more integration, whichever kind it may be.

Consequently, it would not be surprising that indifference against Britain’s considerations on the EU will grow.

It could be a slippery slope. No EU leader believes that it is in Europe’s interest to see Britain drift away. Yet the more annoyance crystallises, the more it fuels the eurosceptic agenda and the more it becomes difficult for pro-European advocates – in Parliament, business, interest groups etc. – to make their case.

The conservative ministers of the coalition will have increasing difficulty to manage their backbenchers in parliament, while UKIP is likely to surf on its positive trends in opinion polls.

We need to acknowledge that while we are pondering over the virtue of deepened integration, the British debate delves into the value of being part of the EU in the first place.

It is adventurous enough for any pro-European actor to take a stance in favour of the European Union; let us not make their life more difficult."

COMMENTS

  • Thank you for this, it is the first item I can remember written from a continental view point which recognises the depth of euroscepticism within the UK without being insulting. We do have a different perspective and whilst genuinely wishing you well in the future, I for one do not wish to be part of a more closely integrated federal construction.

    With reference to the Review of the Balance of Competences, you say “The Liberal Democrats and the Labour party will try to use it to bring about an informed debate on the EU.” Why do you not consider that the results of the review may well be used by the Conservatives and UKIP to inform the debate as well. Many of us simply do not accept the view that the political elements of the EU (as distinct to the straight forward economic trading aspects) are self-evidently a good thing. Let us both just agree that the Review will be a source of information for both sides which can be judged by the electorate prior to a referendum.

    Undoubtedly you are right in your assertion that “Most continental Europeans will find it striking that none of the two major parties is today pro-European in the way we understand it – that is in favour of more integration, whichever kind it may be.” I am surprised that this is only just becoming apparent to a wider European audience. I cannot think of a single period in the last 40 years in which you could have honestly described the UK as anything other than an awkward partner. For all the attention given to the recent speech by Ed Miliband on this and other web sites (“Britain 'sleepwalking to EU exit', warns Labour”) I have never heard him, Tony Blair, Peter Mandelson or indeed even Nick Clegg state in clear terms that the UK should take part in the integration developments obviously on the horizon. I can only suggest that this is because they (and all other political leaders in the country) believe it will seriously damage their electoral chances.

    As you say, 2012 has been interesting regarding the relationship between the EU and the UK, 2013 and 2014 will certainly continue the trend.

    By :
    I want out
    - Posted on :
    19/12/2012
  • It all depends on how far the federalist agenda goes, and to save the Euro it has to go to far. Political union is an absolute no no for 90% of British people. The past 200 years before today is strictly speaking history, but when it comes to Europe it is all the recent past and shows clearly where not to go.

    By :
    Charles_M
    - Posted on :
    19/12/2012
  • I'm so bored by the likes of the comments posted by Sue, above. What ranting xenophobes like that seem to forget is that the common currency and the infrastructures vested in the EU are there for ALL OUR SAKES. Britain cannot survive on her own in the globalised world, when in 30 years no single European state will be a member of the G8. We are all in this together! We are the largest economy in the world and we need to act in unison for that to have a bearing on our future. Britain's contribution to the EU budget helps other EU states who are less well-off become as well-off as we are. They then start buying our goods and services. Win-win. Even the Americans and other outsiders can see that Britain is better-off inside the Union. Please get a grip and look to the future, not the Empire, which is long-gone.

    By :
    boneurop
    - Posted on :
    19/12/2012
  • I am branch chair of UKIP local Northern Lincolnshire.I have never been a member of any political party only UKIP.

    What has happened to our country? The EU is a problem for all of europe.

    Time for change. Time to leave. Time to keep the
    15bil£ here. Time to say to grant applications "Funded by the UK"

    By :
    John Stockton
    - Posted on :
    20/12/2012
  • The old argument that Britain cannot survive alone (boneurop above) is a simple FUD argument, Fear Uncertainty and Doubt, a well known tactic when selling dubious or even unsaleable products - frankly its total bollocks. Any nation of 60+ million is quite capable of standing alone, as the existence of 200+ independent nations mostly smaller will testify. There seems to be going around some sort of virulent nationalism, not based on the nation, but on some sort of collective, federalised europe, to be evolved from the EU. Its like some sort of 4th reich, united states of europe, or some other fantasy. Brussels is already like 1930's Berlin, taking on the mantle of a 1000 year delusion, with all the real power in unelected hands.
    No thank you to any of this!!!

    By :
    Charles_M
    - Posted on :
    20/12/2012
  • ‘Boneurop’ a quick point, Greece has been the biggest net recipient of EU funding, 97bn Euro of fiscal transfers since joining in 1981 (EU figures) and this does not include bail outs etc. Would anyone claim that today after 31 years they are well off? They had the funding to develop, often by buying goods from other EU countries. The same is true of Ireland and Spain, again many would say they are now paying for this with appalling social hardship (anyone else want 25% unemployment ?) not least because of the “common currency and the infrastructures vested in the EU”

    The debate surely is about what people want for themselves and their countries. The UK clearly does not want any part of a political structure. Indeed there is very considerable dislike with the current degree of UK integration with the EU, less than 20% of the population support the existing ties and 56% would like to leave entirely.

    Surely that was what this article was discussing, the fact that the UK has developed (or perhaps always had) an entirely different view of the EEC / EC / EU and that this has now reached the stage where the cracks can no longer be papered over. If this is true and if as the author claims “No EU leader believes that it is in Europe’s interest to see Britain drift away” then some form of new relationship will have to be forged between both parties, even David Cameron (often seen in the UK as not being firm enough in defence of UK interests) seems to accept this.

    Ultimately very few Britons would accept your view that the UK could not survive on its own. Once you understand that, then the comments of many UK posters becomes more comprehensible.

    By :
    I want out
    - Posted on :
    20/12/2012
  • What I find astonishing is that the Council's work on the new EU Staff Regulations is dictated by the UK whereas it is clear that UK interest is to destroy EU institutions and then leave without any risk of future competition.
    Other member states, please wake up and isolate people that act in their own interest with propaganda that has proven false and based on constant lies. Not a single figure arrogantly used by UK is actually true, and that is simply intolerable.

    By :
    Ema
    - Posted on :
    20/12/2012
  • "Other member states, please wake up and isolate people that act in their own interest with propaganda that has proven false and based on constant lies"

    I think Ema is talking about France here, who are always in it only for themselves

    By :
    Charles_M
    - Posted on :
    20/12/2012
  • Britain is wasting its time drawing up a list of items it wishes to "repatriate". As both Merkel and Hollande have made clear, the EU is not about to give the UK a competitive advantage by allowing it to play freerider in the single market without having to comply with the associated rules and regulations.

    The options are clear - either stick with the current framework and seek to change it from within or get on with your referendum and leave. The longer the current situation endures, the harder attitudes become towards the UK.

    By :
    Patrick
    - Posted on :
    21/12/2012
  • I am a convicted Europeist but also a friend and admirer of UK (which is not represented by the ignorant and xenophobic discourse of Sue).

    I think there is a constant misrepresentation of "Brussels" and its Eurocrats. The truth is that, on average, the EU Eurocrats earn not much more than the British ones, and are 55 000 for a entity of 500 million people. On the other hand, we tend to forget (driven by our beloved tabloids) that the evil "Brussels" is not the Commission or even the Parliament. Actually, the main decisions are taken by the Council, meaning the national governments - including UK -, in meetings where the UK has a very significant weight.

    Europe is far from perfect but brought us peace and a sense of union among nations like never before in history, and it is not the nazi entity that Charles_M suggests.

    Nevertheless, UK is uncomfortable inside it and EU is getting tired of the British exceptionalism. Sometimes there is this felling that the UK is in the EU only to damage it from within, which I also find unfair. But Cameron´s last discourses have been particularly unfortunate, saying that he would like to take advantage of EU difficulties to get what he wants. It is totally against the EU spirit, small minded and even unbritish of him.

    UK would be fine out of the EU and, as an Europeist and "UKist", gradually I am getting inclined to think that is the best for every one.

    As I said, UK is a strong country and would get just fine, so I tend to agree with Charles_M on that.

    However, I do consider that some Euroceptics are a bit overly optimistic. EU will not accept a status similar to Switzerland. They are already sorry for that and are even trying to revert it.

    So UK would be out of the common market, its exports paying taxes to have access to their main market (the EU), products would have to comply with EU norms anyway (to which UK would not have a say), the world - US, China, Arab and Latin American countries - would phone Berlin (or even Brussels...) overpassing London, non-EU companies that have their European base in London (and making the City what it is ) would move it to the EU (so a diminish City would be in place), etc.

    In the mid-term, UK (without Scotland) would be economically poorer but still a good country to live in.

    You can say that you want to be out, because you want to be out, because you do not want to participate in the European project and its goals. Just do not say that you would be economically better because that is not true and you are lying to your countrymen. And that is fine, countries sometimes try to break way from other politic entities following their heart, and that is fair.

    The thing is, what John Stockton and his UKIP friends would use as an excuse for the wrongs of the world without "Brussels"?

    By :
    Radagast
    - Posted on :
    21/12/2012
  • The EU has not given Europe peace in the last years since World war 2. It was the people like my parents that gave their all for even the Germans to have freedom. Then we have the evil EU marching forward. The sixty year cycle for Europe is coming round again. World War 1 German, 60years (aprx) World war 2 German, 60 years (aprox) EU dominated by the back door German 60 years (aprox).

    I am not a German hater. For I have many friends that are German. My friends also think they should have a UIPK in Germany. Look at Merkel and her history is that what the free Germans want. If as Patrick, states that Merkel and Hollande are not to give the UK a freerider in the EU. Then please help us. Help us get out and then you can have all of the EU. We will keep our cash. We have run down areas in the UK. If Poland needs money to build its cities, Patrick and all you others help them.

    The dream for you people that think one state is for all is about to wake you up. UKIP is growing fast. We will trade, we will help,we will not be part of the EU.

    By :
    John Stockton
    - Posted on :
    22/12/2012
  • Comparing the UKs top-25 trading partners outside-the-EU, with its 5 closest neighbours in the Eurozone (France, Benelux, Germany and Ireland), Britain exports in overall value:

    1. more to BENELUX than to the USA.
    2. more to GERMANY than to Japan, China, Russia, India, Canada and Australia alltogether.
    3. more to IRELAND than to Hong-Kong, Singapore, the Emirates, South Africa and New Zealand put together.
    4. more to FRANCE than to South Korea, Brazil, Mexico, Argentina, Chile, Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand, the Philippines, Saudi-Arabia, Turkey, Jordan, Israel, Egypt and Nigeria alltogether.

    The rest of the UK's trade with the EU balances out its trade with the rest of the world. With the slow-down of the European economy (in recession for the last few years), the UK's exports to Europe have only just equaled its exports to the rest of the world, but for 40 years they have been higher, and will soon become so again. Anyway, were the UKs exports to be 49% to the EU and 51% to the rest of the world or the other way round, it still makes the Uk's trade with EU countries twice bigger than what these countries actually represent in world markets:

    Compare the share different foreign countries represent for Britain's trade, with what these countries' account for in terms of total world trade. The ratio is round about 200% for EU countries, and 50% for the others. (In some years it may be 199/51 or 201/49 but these are minor fluctuations.) So for example, if the Netherlands account for 1% of total world trade, they would be 7% of Britain's total trade. But if Japan represents 7% of world trade, it totals only 2% of Britain's exports or imports.

    For UK imports, the comparison is about the same, with only one or the other country outside the EU switching from Germany to France or from Ireland to Benelux (regarding such proportions, the differences are anyway unsignificant).

    Source: HM REvenue and costums Statistics from october 2011, zoom the graph from The Guardian on
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/feb/24/uk-trade-exports-imports

    By :
    uk-skeptic
    - Posted on :
    25/12/2012
  • While there is quite rightly a lot of talk about the levels of UK trade with the EU which is then used to suggest or even state outright that the UK could not survive outside the EU, little is ever made of the levels of export trade from the EU to the UK. For example I do not recall seeing the fact that the EU countries sell more to the UK than to the US and Japan combined being widely noted, or the fact that the UK is the single biggest market for German vehicle manufacturers and indeed for many other sectors of the EU economy. Let us just agree that there is currently a great deal of trade between the EU and the UK and that trade is universally seen as a good thing.

    But economics are only one aspect of EU membership and in fact the sole part of EU membership which is not contentious in the UK. The right to decide your own political destiny, how you wish to structure your social life, home affairs etc. seem to me to be a matter for the people of any given country to determine and is entirely separate from a trade relationship. Most UK posters (even Jacques Delors in Handelsblatt 28/12/12 seems to have come to the same view) do not want to have a political relationship with the EU, which brings us back to the core of the article that started this debate. If the unwillingness to engage in a political construction is accepted as the UK view, then what we are talking about is simply the terms of trade which would be acceptable to both parties.

    To force a political solution onto a country against the express will of its people is unlikely to end well, regardless of how much trade is currently conducted, and relying on current trade figures as supposed evidence the UK could not survive outside the EU ignores the fact that patterns of trade are fluid and constantly change.

    By :
    I want out
    - Posted on :
    02/01/2013
  • @Iwantout
    The latest statistics show that 11% of the EU's internal trade is with Britain, the value of which is exceeded by its external trade with the US (17%). Japan represents 3.6% of EU external trade. EU trade with Switzerland (8.4%) and Norway (3.1%) is more valuable than trade with the UK.

    The situation is quite simple. Either Britain puts up with the EU or it leaves and rejoins EFTA, negotiates free trade agreements like Switzerland or remains completely separate. In the event that it leaves and wants to have access to the single market, it has to accept all EU legislation in that area without having a say on it.

    By :
    Patrick
    - Posted on :
    03/01/2013
  • I guess the EU must sell even more to countries like Germany or France than it does to the UK (or to the US+Japan combined). Generally speaking the EU countries (just like american states or any member of a trade bloc elsewhere) exchange much more between themselves than with the rest of the world.

    But of course, this only works as long as these countries are within the single market, obey its common rules, apply its common standards and contribute to its common budget, as well as exclude any non-member country from accessing domestic markets, the same way British business enjoys privileged access to other members' markets, compared to US or Japanese businesses.

    Were the UK (for whatever reason) to refuse playing by the same rules, and renounce on this partnership, it makes no doubt the trade figures with Europe would completely change, the geographic proximity of Britain being in this case far from sufficient at balancing out its relatitive weaknesses in terms of economic weight compared to non-EU countries like the US or even Japan, which are trading partners outside of the single market that the UK would then have to compete with in Europe under the same conditions of restricted access to continental markets.

    By :
    uk-skeptic
    - Posted on :
    04/01/2013
  • We're not European I'm afraid and you can't fight that.
    I travel alot around Europe - Zurich, Vienna, Paris and also Russia/Ukraine and have realised yes I like picking up good quality European chocolate at the airport for gifts coming back but really I sense a greater connection with the Russians. Some how we are like them and not Europeans - hopefully we can be associate members of EU, paying 0.5% of GDP, school exchanges, university exchanges and twin towning etc.

    By :
    stan the man
    - Posted on :
    04/01/2013
  • I think it's wise for the Britts to leave the EU.They don't want to belong so let them be alone in their tiny Island and dream about the lots empire. We going to manage with out them very well, we allways did and going to do so in the future.

    By :
    frank
    - Posted on :
    04/01/2013
  • @stan,«We're not European I'm afraid and you can't fight that.» English people could also claim they are sunny pacific islanders, but at the end of the day they step out of the house in wellies.

    As for the Russians, the british may match them for the taste of their chocolate compared to the ones in Vienna, Zurich or Paris, but Russia, lying on 2 continents is fairly big, like 12% of the Earth's land mass, 100 times bigger than the UK. On how many continents outside Europe does Britain lie, with only 0.16% of the world's land mass,?

    Contrary to Britain, Russia never got invaded by Celts, Romans, Norwegians, Danes, Saxons, Normans and Dutch. Nowhere but in Britain has the history or even the language been influenced and shaped by that many different european cultures (gaelic latin german scandinavian french dutch). Which other language is 50% germanic - 50% latin but english? Which other religion is 50% catholic 50% protestant but anglicanism (with its queen-pope)? Not exactly recalling Siberia!

    Where else but in Britain do tens of millions of people have scandinavian genetic ancestory, whilst living among stonehenge, the roman baths of Bath, hundreds of norman Castles like the Tower of London or french looking gothic cathedrals, as well as dutch-style Kensington Palace and Gardens, residence of William of Orange in London. Britain is really a North Sea version of Sicily: a mini Europe.

    By :
    uk-skeptic
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • I sit in South Africa, although Welsh born. I have resided in other commonweath countries. I view Britain from a distance, but keep up todate via Sky etc. It is clear to me that Britain is Europian. Their history is Europian, even if only by wars, and of course migration,at one stage there were less than two million anglo saxons and celts in Britain
    The economic crises are causing countries in the E U to look inward causing a national selfishness. Can U K manage without, say the European banking industry based inLondon.
    I believe the E U group should be those only committed to the Euro, you cannot half join a golf club, you won't be allowed to play the game.

    I perceive an English arrogance in all matters related to global relationships, there
    isn't an Empire any more, co operation is required.

    So take full membership! !

    By :
    roger
    - Posted on :
    11/01/2013
  • Patrick,

    According to HMRC the EU exported goods worth 245.1 bn euro to the UK in 2011. (The UK exported 191.5bn euro to the EU, giving the EU a surplus of 53.6 bn euro.)

    Eurostat show that In 2011 the EU (excluding the UK) exported goods worth 121.7bn euro to Switzerland and 46.5 bn euro to Norway, a total of 168.2bn euro.

    The EU therefore exported 76.9bn euro more to the UK than to Switzerland and Norway combined according to the official statistical bodies of the EU and UK.

    We have all read and written a great deal about whether the UK would be better or worse off outside the EU. Figures and quotes have been produced by both sides supporting their position. Is it perhaps not the case that really no one knows or indeed can know given the complexity of the question. It is highly unlikely that there is a single bottom line figure that provides the ultimate answer given the range of activities impacted on by EU membership.

    The list of unknowns in this discussion is very long even after a cursory examination. Just as an example none of us on these sites has the first idea of what the terms of trade offered to the UK would be, and we certainly don’t know the trade arrangements the UK could make once outside the Common External Tariff. Having said that all the digging about in arcane sources looking for that figure that proves your view one way or another seems to entertain many of us, even if it is starting to look obsessive.

    I am sure you and probably most other European readers would like the UK to definitively make up it’s mind as to whether it wants to stay in the EU or not. So do we, we are just waiting (increasingly impatiently) for our ‘leaders’ to summon up the courage to put it to the people.

    By :
    I want out
    - Posted on :
    11/01/2013
  • I actualy wonder why the Britts enjoyed the Union. They not contributing anything they are a back seat riders who constantly hitting the brakes. They can't even keep their own union in shape The Scotts wants out the Irish allready did it.

    By :
    frank
    - Posted on :
    11/01/2013
  • I think the point is that most Britons don’t enjoy the Union and they feel that they are contributing very significantly via their net payments into the EU budget.

    If you have mistyped and meant to say ‘I wonder why the Brits joined the Union’ then the answer of course is they did not, they joined the EEC which was described simply as a trading block.

    By :
    I want out
    - Posted on :
    11/01/2013
  • Well, time arren't constant it's changes, people and ideas with it and you people have just a bit difficulties to hang on with it.This is a kind of behavour you are very well known for.

    By :
    frank
    - Posted on :
    12/01/2013
  • By the way not for a secund beleive that you are the only one who is contribute but, its' a british attitude as usual.

    By :
    frank
    - Posted on :
    12/01/2013
  • Frank,

    You are absolutely right, things do change over time and when they do people are entitled to change their minds as well, so when the EEC changes into the EU people who were in favour of an EEC as a simple trading bloc are allowed to decide that they do not want anything to do with a political EU.

    In the final analysis that is what all this is about. Who wants an integrated political entity and who does not?. It is not realistic to believe you can make such major decisions without involving the people and in the UK the people (in every region including Scotland according to a poll run for the London School of Economics Summer 2012) do not seem to want to be part of such an entity.

    Just to provide some information regarding contributions, according to Eurostat in 2011 12 countries were net contributors to the EU. Depending on how you measure it the UK was :-

    - 8th highest contributor per capita (Luxembourg 1st Germany 7th and France 11th )

    - 5th highest as % of GDP (Netherlands first, Germany 6th and France 11th )

    - 2nd highest in absolute terms (Germany 1st and France 3rd)

    There are many ways of measuring the payments and who pays most etc., but let's just agree that the UK does pay significant amounts of money to the EU.

    By :
    I want out
    - Posted on :
    13/01/2013
  • Reducing the question of interest for membership to the amount a country contributes to the european budget is just completely misjudging the advantages that joining the single maket provides to this country's trade. While the UK may have to send a couple of billions to brussels each year, their access to the single market in return provides british businesses (and indirectly the UK's finances) so many more bilions, such a calculation is just ridiculous, not mentioning the UK already has a rebate no other member enjoys.

    Anyway, according to HMRC 2011 statistics mentioned above, the UK sells more

    1.to BENELUX than to the USA
    2 to SCANDINAVIA than to China, Hong-Kong and Taiwan
    3.to IRELAND than to Canada, Australia and New-zealand

    Guess how much for France or Germany?

    For imports, the UK buys more

    1 from HOLLAND than from the USA
    2 from BENELUX than from China (enormous exporter)...
    3 from SCANDINAVIA than from Japan, Hong-Kong, the Emirates, Singapore...

    Whether it is or not in surplus doesn't change anything to the enormous dependancy of british trade towards the EU, and the fact that renouncing on the single market would imply drastic trouble to UK business. That's very well known, only I want out ignores (or feigns to ignore) it.

    Anyway what is this economic debate according to which one "prefers" trading with that part of the world than another? Is the trading strategy based on whether one fancies the design of yuans or dollar bank notes more than euros? Seems very clever for a business plan!

    By :
    uk-skeptic
    - Posted on :
    13/01/2013
  • Since mainly it's about economy you people talking about than just think about this. Thanks to EEC/EU it's the first time Europe can compite with the US dominance in the passenger airplane industry.
    Just remember this it wouldn't be possible to non of the single state to achive that.

    Brussel do not controll or dictate where the sigle member states export and how much their export is nor how much your import is outside of Europe. But keep on mind that you got to have a high quality prodict manufactured cheaply otherwise you dont have a buyer. That the UK have most of it's import and export to or from the mainland of Europe is because it's much more easier faster contacts and less time spend on transport. It's smooth.
    Whe it comes to the political State it's nothing else but all the member state have one voice insteed of having many voices. Member states got to be somehow equal to each other to achive smooter relations and create an economic power for all of us in the future.
    Decisions made by the European parlament might not feet everyone but it's the same case in a national levet to.
    Anyway it's no use to discuss anything untill you don't se the bigger picture.

    By :
    frank
    - Posted on :
    13/01/2013
  • Uk-sceptic

    Just to make my position as clear as possible, I accept absolutely that the EU is an extremely important trading partner for the UK. Having visited the HRMC site myself this evening I would accept that in 2011 we exported more to Ireland (£17.3bn) than to Canada etc (£9.5bn), and imported more from Benelux (£48.1bn) than from China (£30.1bn).

    However in the other four cases you give above the figures HMRC data tables do not support your assertion. We exported £38.6bn to Benelux and £39bn to US, £10.6bn to Scandinavia and £15.1bn to China. Similarly we imported £28.4bn from the Netherlands and £30.3bn from US, £15.9bn from Scandinavia and £21.5bn from Japan etc.(And let us not forget the Rotterdam Effect that inflates the importance of UK trade with the EU by an unknown amount but suggested by some authorities to be approximately 10%, ie UK imports from the Netherlands is likely to be more like £25.5bn rather than the £28.4bn listed above.)

    I extend to you the courtesy that you have found a source of figures which supports your claims, please do the same for me. I reemphasise an earlier point, the subject is extremely complex, the data arcane and there probably is not a single answer to the question especially when you factor in the costs inherent in EU membership.

    With regards to the importance of the single market, may I offer you the following quote -

    “The single market has been an overhyped, but mostly disappointing programme, with no measurable impact on GDP. It does not extend to most services, the largest part of the economy. Governments have rolled back the single market in finance during the crisis. Member states also treat energy as largely domestic. Defence procurement was never part of it anyway. I always found that the single market’s most useful function was that you can pay tribute to it in after-dinner speeches.” This is not the ranting of some rabid 'Little Englander', but Wolfgang Munchau (26/11/12) writing in the Financial Times. For your information Mr Munchau is a highly respected economic journalist from Germany who has written for both the UK Financial Times (which is definitely Pro EU) and the FT Deutschland (he was a co-editor of that paperfor a number of years). You may also find the article he has written today http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/659572a6-5b57-11e2-9d4c-00144feab49a.html#axzz2Hsmz3YgX informative as to his view of the impact on the UK of leaving the EU.

    Bottom line, YES the EU is obviously an important trading partner. YES there is clearly a lot more to the EU than just trade. NO there is no evidence that a majority of the UK population want anything to do with the parts of the EU which are not specifically trade related. Jacques Delors declared as much in his interview 28/12/12 Handelsblatt. Accept it as a reality.

    By :
    I want out
    - Posted on :
    13/01/2013
  • @Iwantout: Look at the graph from the guardian based on HMRC's 2011 stats (http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/feb/24/uk-trade-exports-imports): Benelux (without Luxembourg) imports from the UK just as much as the US. But whether the UK's trade were £38.6bn with Benelux and £39bn with the USA as you say or the other way round, what I meant is that per inhabitant, the UK exports 10 times more to Benelux than to the USA and imports 20 times more from the Nederlands than from the USA!

    If you decide trade with the Nederlands is not representative because of Rotterdam harbour, I guess you'll also have to take into account the importance of New-York's Harbour, Hong-Kong's harbour, as well as London's Harbour and so on, which at the end of the day balances out the calculation. For example, with or without Hamburg, Germany alone imports more from the UK (£27.5bn) than China (£7bn), India (£4.6bn), Russia (3.8), Japan (3.6bn), Canada (£4.1), and Australia (£3.3bn) alltogether...

    I think you are the one having to accept this reality instead of nitpicking in every ways possible: the proportions are so obvious that your finicky corrections appear just disingenuous.

    The reality is that all these countries the UK buys and sells so much more from and to than anywhere else, already ARE in the single market, bound by EU treaties regulating their trade within themselves, as well as with non-EU members. Imagining the UK could go on trading freely with them, without applying the rules of the common market and contributing to its budget (as every other members are forced to) is pure non-sense and wishful thinking. If such a deal was conceivable anyone would long before the UK have chosen to do so. It makes no doubt most of EU countries' population just like the british would also prefer enjoying the advantages of membership without its disadvantages, but the problem is that there is no way that could ever work out. Most of europeans as the english would also vote for having Hawaï's climate but that's not much going to help.

    Anyway the EU is mostly focused on trade: defense is wollowing in limbo since ever (it's NATO, do you want to leave it?), foreign policy the same (if any it's the UN, look at Iraq), and there are as many different justice, election, education, health, or social systems as there are EU countries, if not more. Nobody has a clue how these systems possibly could ever unite. Only environment policies (wow!) may increase in Brussels but that's not so far from economics. There are projects for work laws, fiscal or budget coordinations but these are also elements of economic policies in a single market and they anyway adjust to the lowest bidder, the rest being free, which would equal the same as nothing (as now)...

    Further, there is this thing happenning called globalisation and apparently it makes every countries around the world increasingly integrate among continental blocs (most transactions are made within the EU, within North or South America, within South-east Asia...) and so far no country has ever claimed to exit its own trading bloc, rather the contrary. Would London (who's in the richest bloc) have understood something in buisness no one else has yet got?

    By :
    uk-skeptic
    - Posted on :
    14/01/2013
  • UK-sceptic

    The ‘Rotterdam Effect’ relates to the inherent inflation of all trade figures between the UK and the EU because any goods touching any point of the EU prior to onward transmission are recorded as exports to the EU rather than to their actual destination outside the EU. It can happen at any port in the EU and is has nothing to do with the Netherlands specifically. In essence the UK actually exports more to the rest of the World and less to the EU than the formal figures show. This phenomenon is accepted by all national statistical bodies although I have not seen any formally agreed figure setting the level of distortion.

    The figures I quoted may be considered pedantic but were from primary sources rather than as provided by newspapers and suggest that the previous assertions you made were incorrect. I have previously accepted, and do again, that the EU is indeed an important trading partner. The figures also point to the fact that of all the EU economies the UK actually does least trade inside the Union and most outside.

    As I indicated before, none of us know what type of trade deal the UK may secure with the EU, but quite clearly many very senior people (and I quoted Jacques Delors) now consider it a real probability and have indicated that it will be necessary to adjust relationships accordingly, remember that is the sentiment of an ex- President of the Commission not a eurosceptic Briton! The comments by George Osborne in Die Welt 11/01/13 are in the same vein, this from arguably the second most senior person in government.

    But that aside, if the EU was actually “mostly focused on trade” then there would be significantly less difficulty between the UK and the EU. The fact is that the EU is (necessarily to protect the euro) moving towards closer integration and all that means. I happen to believe, and am supported by every opinion poll for years, that the majority of the UK population do not want this. That is the reality we are arguing about here.

    I have accepted without reservation several times your view regarding the importance of the EU as a trading partner, will you accept in turn the fact that a clear majority of the UK population do not want to be part of a US of E and therefore this must be factored into the developing relationship between both parties ?

    By :
    I want out
    - Posted on :
    14/01/2013
  • I want out, once again how do you explain the proportion of UK trade with Germany then, which doesn't comprise Rotterdam? Is it again all because of Hamburg's activities? Actually there should be even more trade between the UK and Germany or France (or any EU-country but the Netherlands), as the figures don't show all of it because of the "Rotterdam effect".

    I don't think most people spontaneously have a definite opinion about EU membership. I guess jobs, the price of food, the bus timetables, the weather or even animal protection are much more important and tangible subjects for people in their daily lives, than abstract problems such as Sovereignty and commercial agreements with this country or the other. What kind of meaningful problems are people confronted with everyday that they relate to the EU debate? they may answer no to the question "do you want to be part of the US of E" but is it really something they think about on their way to work in the morning?

    Of course, as usual, most people tend rather to agree (if you ask them the question) that their problems are in fact caused by evil foreigners, but unfortunately the reality is rarely as easy. If you ask any population, not only in the UK or even Europe, whether they'd prefer their country to be independent or to be bound by international treaties, with all sorts of constraints, of course the answer makes no doubt. But is it really a reason to do so and not to have treaties anymore? Isn't democracy slightly more demanding than just listening to people's insticts? Or does democracy actually need to obey some sort of rational principles as well? Hitler / Hamas (whom everyone backed in Germany / Gaza) are democratic leaders then in your view and thus should be (or have been) followed in the name of freedom?

    By :
    uk-skeptic
    - Posted on :
    14/01/2013
  • UK - sceptic

    You did not respond to the question, do you accept that a clear majority of the UK population do not want to be part of a US of E and therefore this must be factored into the developing relationship between both parties ?

    By :
    I want out
    - Posted on :
    15/01/2013
  • I want out: read my last post's 2nd paragraph: I don't think most people spontaneously have a definite opinion about EU membership...

    I think a 3rd of the UK probably wants out, a 3rd wants to stay and a 3rd is still unsure. Anyway opinion polls are not polls and it is difficult to know what people think before a campaign starts, when everybody concerned expresses oneself in a debate (if the 3 parties of the UK, buisness lobbies and the city, Washington, Whitehall and many other players start really saying what they think about the UK membership and what it involves, people may have a different idea as now. For the moment, as no campaign / debate started, I'm not sure people have a formed position yet and it might anyway change with a referendum campaign. Any opinion poll before appears artificial).

    By :
    uk-skeptic
    - Posted on :
    15/01/2013
  • How many referenda were lost / won after many opinion polls repeatedly affirmed the result would be the contrary as it finally appeared to be? In the end, what are all these opinion polls been worth all this time? Wait for people suffurages before saying what you imagine they think. Democracy isn't speculation.

    By :
    uk-skeptic
    - Posted on :
    15/01/2013
  • UK - sceptic

    OK, just one point, why if most people do not have an opinion on the EU do you think Cameron is being pushed so very hard by his party and why has the UK Independence Party regularly shown twice the level of support as the Liberal Democrats ?

    Anyway I guess we can both agree that on Friday when Cameron makes his speech we will at least have an idea where things might be going over the next few years, I seriously doubt he will be suggesting the UK will sign up to closer integration.

    To close I agree entirely with your final posting re polls v actual votes and I am sure you want this finally decided as much as I do.

    By :
    I want out
    - Posted on :
    15/01/2013
  • I want out: Again, I already answered your one point

    1. Of course, as usual, most people tend rather to agree (if you ask them the question) that their problems are in fact caused by evil foreigners, but unfortunately the reality is rarely as easy. If you ask any population, not only in the UK or even Europe, whether they'd prefer their country to be independent or to be bound by international treaties, with all sorts of constraints, of course the answer makes no doubt. But is it really a reason to do so and not to have treaties anymore? Isn't democracy slightly more demanding than just listening to people's insticts? Or does democracy actually need to obey some sort of rational principles as well? Hitler / Hamas (whom everyone backed in Germany / Gaza) are democratic leaders then in your view and thus should be (or have been) followed in the name of freedom?

    Now maybe you start answering

    2. Do you want to leave NATO too if you think people don't want to share their sovereignty for anything else than trade matters? What do you think people would answer to the question: "do your want your country's army to be controlled by foreign chiefs of staff"?

    2. Isn't the UK's trade with every EU country other than the Netherlands even larger than it already (overwehlmingly) seems, because of Rotterdam (Europe's harbour distorsion of figures)?

    3. Which problems are UK citizens confronted with in their daily lives, which relate to the EU debate? Are those matters placing the EU issue anywhere near the top of a list of concerns people have and think about on their way to work in the morning?

    UKIP has no MP's, has never and will nevr form a government, unlike the three governing parties who all favour staying in the EU.. I think Cameron is probably going to announce (once again) that he's going to take drastic measures which unsurprisingly won't be followed through into any effect. If Cameron claims to be waiting for his hypothetical 2nd mandate to propose a referendum, you can be sure he sees euroscepics as just good at listening like cattle to his promises but certainly not as advisers to govern the country in practice. They are ideal voters, easily tricked, seeking the cheap thrill of spun fantasies without holding their leaders to account, believing every new (old) promise. He'll probably find whatever reason (if he gets elected) to explain that actually such a referendum isn't possible unfortunately.

    By :
    uk-skeptic
    - Posted on :
    15/01/2013
  • UK-sceptic,

    I have never suggested that treaties should not be signed and complied with, but neither do I believe that once a treaty has been signed (or indeed any agreement private or public) that it cannot ever be amended or cancelled as fundamental circumstances change. To believe otherwise would be to suggest that nothing can ever be altered. Naturally there are appropriate ways of doing this, indeed the provisions under the Lisbon Treaty allowing countries to leave the EU are in place specifically for this reason.

    Democracy must be thoughtful and protect minorities, but it is of itself a powerful force. What we have in the UK (look at the Eurobarometer results ) is a country that has for decades distrusted and disliked the EC / EU by large margins to the extent that today less than 20% support it completely. I am suggesting that the EU must recognise this in its future dealing with the UK. Incidentally your examples of Hitler and Hamas are a little unreasonable given that both rose to power amid major violence and wide scale death which is hardly a democratic process, history is littered with examples of ‘democracy’ subverted by threats, I am sure you are not suggesting this is the case in the UK. My point is that the fact that there is clearly no popular support for UK integration in the EU must be taken into account by the EU and those that want to move ‘the project’ forward.

    NATO is an intergovernmental organisation, it does not tell us the specifications of our tanks etc., as the EU does for almost every item you can think of,e.g. Reg 1284/2002 marketing size for hazelnuts ! NATO cannot tell us to go to war with anyone unless another NATO country is invaded (in which case we would certainly wish to physically help protect our ally.) whereas the EU can tell us how to live our lives.

    http://www.globalbritain.org/BNN/BN64RotterdamAntwerpNethDistortion.pdf helps explain the Rotterdam Effect and the fact that the issue is formally recognised by the UK government in the Office for National Statistics and the Pink Book. You and I can argue about it endlessly but governments accept its existence.

    You ask for a problem in everyday life impacted on by EU, how about employment?. EU social legislation has provided virtually the same protections for temporary workers as for full time staff. On one hand absolutely great because people should not be exploited, but the other consequence has been that the number of temporary jobs in the UK has collapsed. Previously many employers used temporary jobs to assess a person before taking them on full time or to fill peaks of demand as it did not cost too much and letting unsuitable staff go was easy at the end of the contract. That is no longer as straightforward and is relatively more expensive. The ultimate result is it is much harder for people to enter the jobs market and unemployment levels are greater than might be the case. I am sure you will say that the old system was not fair, and I would agree with you completely. But perhaps some of the 50% of unemployed young people in Spain might have a view on getting any job at all.

    You are correct UKIP do not have any MPs nor will they ever have more than one or two even if they are very lucky. But in the 2010 general election they did get 920,000 votes. This cost the Conservatives at least 21 MPs (a different person was elected in our first past the post system because the UKIP candidate took too many votes from the Conservative) and thus a clear majority in Parliament. Since that election UKIP have overtaken the Liberal Democrats in the opinion polls and in some by elections e.g. Corby November 2012, UKIP 14.3%, Liberal Democrats 4.9%. It is not that UKIP can win, but that the Conservatives must move in their direction to recapture the voters.

    Yes all the parties are in favour of staying in the EU (although paid up members of both the Conservatives and Labour parties who wish to leave the EU are in a majority and even in the Lib Dems the majority for staying in is only 9% - Guardian / Observer November 2012) but to quote from the article that started this debate “Most continental Europeans will find it striking that none of the two major parties is today pro-European in the way we understand it – that is in favour of more integration, whichever kind it may be.” In other words the best you can say is that the UK parties may tolerate matters as they are but would not allow further integration.

    I don’t trust Cameron either (how many do?), but the European Union Act 2010 and the demand for a referendum it enshrines means he simply cannot sign a treaty without asking the people. As I have told you repeatedly it is highly unlikely anyone could get a YES vote on any EU change. In essence then it is difficult to see how the UK can take part in the integration that the EU requires. So to use a cliché it becomes a case not of the UK leaving the EU but the EU leaving the UK. That being the case the EU itself may want to change the relationship. Once again I point to the comments of Jacques Delors who we may assume knows more of the detailed information than you or I.

    In conclusion, we want trade and nothing more, if you want further integration that is your decision, but do not expect the UK to partake. Inevitably this must change the relationship and move the UK to an associate type membership or complete removal.

    By :
    I want out
    - Posted on :
    16/01/2013

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