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Britain, Europe and referendums

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Published 17 August 2012

Europe is the key to the future of the coalition government in Britain. Unless the current tendency to pander to the eurosceptic right is abandoned, the Liberal Democrats will be inevitably driven into a future coalition with a Labour Party that has declined to commit political suicide by heading too far to the left, writes Tom Spencer.

Tom Spencer is a visiting professor of public affairs at the universities of Chester and Brunel in Britain.

In May 2011 Wilfried Martens, president of the European People's Party and the Centre for European Studies, opened a CES Conference in London.  He was asked about the future of European integration.  He quoted George Herbert to the effect that “Storms make oaks take deeper roots.” 

I admired the elegance of the response, but then realised, that, for the first time in my adult life, I no longer believed with absolute certainty in the permanence of the European Institutions which had been created since 1948. 

A year of turbulence later, I conclude that the euro, and therefore the European Union as we have it, will survive.  While there will be many more anxious days for those in Brussels, I believe that the really acute problems will be faced by the British who are facing a long delayed moment of truth in their relations with the rest of Europe.

It is now dawning on the British that the outcome of Europe’s crisis is likely to be some very difficult choices for London. The key principal of British foreign policy is that ‘no Continental super-power should control the Belgian coast’. 

The threats from Louis XIV, Napoleon and Hitler have been seen off, but the British now face the possibility of a re-invigorated European Union, bent on closer political union, squatting on its doorstep.  In the past this has been dealt with by a series of complex opt-outs. There is a slow recognition that it may no longer be possible to preserve British influence by such means in an organisation to which we are obviously not fully committed.

This can be seen most clearly in the emerging nervousness in the City of London. Those with memories of the 1975 referendum will recall how support from the City was essential for the pro-European cause; just as those in the City begin to remember that London’s global influence cannot be maintained if the UK is only a second-class member of the European Union. 

For some time now both the prime minister and chancellor have been talking up the importance of a strengthened euro. This of course is entirely in line with the logic which says that sterling would not be taken into the euro as long as there was the oft-described design fault of a currency union without a fiscal union. 

No one seems to have given thought to the impact on public opinion of a British PM enthusiastically endorsing steps to bring about a strengthened euro.  Such a habit of recommending a strong European integration, but one not including the United Kingdom, is reminiscent of Churchill’s approach 60 years ago. 

Churchill argued then that there was no need for Britain to join in European unification as we “were positioned at the intersection of three circles of power and influence” – the Empire, the English-speaking world and Europe.  Sadly for those who would adopt such Churchillian tones today, the Empire is no more, the world speaks English, and the Americans are unlikely to welcome a weakening of British ties to Brussels as they tilt towards Asia. 

David Cameron in December 2011 was engaged in an attempt to balance his Liberal Democrat allies against the eurosceptic right-wing MPs in his own party.  Such balancing is entirely understandable.  His problem became more complex when the issue was related to his own political survival.  Such is the antagonism of the eurosceptic right that the prime minister may well have formed the opinion that he would not long survive as party leader in a purely conservative administration.   

He will know that no Conservative administration in the last 60 years has increased its majority in a subsequent election.  Once it became apparent that the coalition’s work in overcoming the financial disaster left by Labour was not going to be completed by 2015, the necessity of a second coalition with the Liberal Democrats became clear. 

On this basis Cameron’s entire time as prime minister could be spent in coalition.  Similar considerations apply to the room for manoeuvre available to George Osborne as his most natural successor. The most serious danger he faces would be a eurosceptic attack on his leadership in 2014, just ahead of the renewal of the coalition. 

It does not matter for these purposes whether the hand reaching for the “hollow crown” was that of Boris Johnson or Liam Fox.  What the prime minister needed therefore in December 2011 was a public demonstration that he was prepared to take a eurosceptic stance against Brussels, but preferably one which did no actual damage to Britain’s relationship with its continental partners. 

Those who were present in the European Council in the early hours of the morning of 9 December maintain that he overplayed his hand. He set in stone the image of a bombastic, self-obsessed nation unwilling to play a European role at a time when it would have been most helpful. British influence has from that date reached a very low ebb, even amongst those who have traditionally looked to Britain for leadership. 

How then is Britain likely to resolve the conundrum of its potential exclusion? In order to answer this question we need to consider the future of the current coalition, its likely successor and the vexed issue of referendums. The Conservative-Liberal Democrat Coalition is working well by any usual measure, despite recent arguments over reform of the House of Lords.  

Its impact on the future of British politics is becoming clear.  The Liberal Democrats have acquired precious governing credibility. On the whole their ministers have performed well. They will be able to position themselves at the next election as a restraining force on the Conservative Party, or potentially on the Labour Party. Therefore they will not do as badly as anticipated by some at the general election in 2015. 

I believe that Europe is the key to the future of the coalition and that unless the current tendency to pander to the eurosceptic right is abandoned, the Liberal Democrats will be inevitably driven into future coalition with a Labour Party that has declined to commit political suicide by heading off to the left. 

There is much talk of a threat from the UK Independence Party. It is being suggested that, having no serious competitors to their right, after the implosion of the British National Party, they could benefit from being a ’safe’ form of extremism. 

Despite the talents of UKIP’s leader, Nigel Farage, I do not see that they are by themselves an election-determining force, let alone one capable of deciding the outcome of a post-election referendum. They cannot break through in Westminster’s “first-pas- the-post” elections.  Boosting them now as a tactic to justify giving in to the eurosceptic right will only have the effect of making them more credible at the European elections, when the electoral system is sympathetic to them. 

Although UKIP takes votes from all parties, it is a particular problem for the Conservatives because of the number of leading figures in the constituencies who make no secret of their willingness to vote UKIP in European elections. 

It is reported that all three parties are contemplating offering post-election referendums. There are three possibilities – a vote following re-negotiation, a vote on the status quo or a vote on a fully-fledged membership for Britain. The most unlikely one would be to approve re-negotiated terms for British membership. This is unlikely for the most simple of reasons. None of our continental colleagues are keen to give the British yet more opt-outs at a time when we islanders are perceived as having been even more selfish and uncooperative than usual.  

A more likely referendum could of course be to confirm British membership on the current basis, including our exclusion from the new aspects of European integration implied in fiscal and banking union. It is difficult to see how enthusiasm could be raised for such an uninspiring prospect. It would run the serious risk of the British leaving “by accident” as the result of misunderstandings and misconceptions.  This only leaves the option of a referendum on fully fledged membership.

To restate the situation as it may exist by 2016.  Europe will have gone ahead to fiscal and banking union with a declared intention of further steps towards political union. For those Britons who wish their country to remain as a serious player in European affairs, I would advise them to recall the English proverb, dating back to the 17th century, to the effect that “One might as well be hanged for a sheep as a lamb”. 

If we are to have an in/out referendum, and to put to rest for ever the assertion that Britain only voted to stay in a customs union in the 1975 referendum, then we might as well have a referendum that would lay the basis for Britain’s long-term influence in Europe, including a commitment to join the euro and new aspects of Union policy by an agreed date. 

To hold such a “fully fledged” referendum, would be to gamble that British attitudes to Europe have changed, even if the mentality of its political class remains stuck in the 1990s. Let us hope that those on both sides of the Channel recognise that the stakes are very high.

COMMENTS

  • The sooner we are free from the interference of Brussels and it's red tape the better. This country can and will fare better when we are OUT of the eu !

    By :
    Syd Thomson
    - Posted on :
    18/08/2012
  • There is a great deal of accurate analysis in this article, certainly with regards to the undecided position of the UK with reference to the EU and the need to finally resolve that, for both the EU and the UK.

    I would however there are a number of points I would make that may not be so well known by continental readers.

    The idea that “The key principal of British foreign policy is that ‘no Continental super-power should control the Belgian coast’ “in an age of nuclear weapons, cyber-attacks, domestic suicide bombers is enormously dated and not one I have ever heard proposed.

    The statement “He will know that no Conservative administration in the last 60 years has increased its majority in a subsequent election” is just factually wrong. On three occasions in those sixty years a Conservative government has done exactly that 1955, 1959 and 1983. It is a trick Labour have managed twice 1966 and 1974.There is therefore no historic grounds for believing Cameron will not be returned as Prime Minister in his own right if he garners sufficient support. (This is not to say I believe it is inevitable or even necessarily desirable.)

    I would concur that 2014 is likely to be an extremely dangerous year for Cameron. The European elections could easily see UKIP rise from second to first place in that election. Given that, the Conservatives may decide that securing the 900K+ votes that UKIP obtained in 2010 UK election would warrant closer alignment with the prevalent Eurosceptic popular opinion. Your belief that UKIP could never form a government or indeed even gain a single seat is true. But they could easily poach enough votes from the conservatives to guarantee a Conservative defeat. Examination of the last General Election results suggests that is exactly what happened in 2010. It is argued that approximately 21 seats were lost to the Conservatives because UKIP fielded a candidate in the constituency. If UKIP had not stood then a majority Conservative Government would have been returned. Bottom line is the UKIP votes are important to all parties but the Conservatives have more to gain by adopting an ever more Eurosceptic stance.

    While the Liberal Democrats have undoubtedly gained governmental experience, they are also seen as having cynically betrayed a number of key promises in order to gain power. Student fees are the obvious example, moving from a position of promising no rise in fees to overseeing a 300% increase. They now average 10% poll rating as opposed to the23% in the last election. (Conservative support is now 33% against 36% in 2010 while Labours figures are 29% and 42% respectively) Clearly these figures will change as the election draws nearer, but the Liberal Democrats are no longer seen as having the political purity that they once enjoyed. Those UKIP votes are still looking valuable!

    I would accept your review of the three referendum choices likely as being realistic. I would also tend to agree that for various reasons in is likely to come down to a straight in / out choice. In that case the fact that politicians of all sides lied to the electorate in 1975 when they stated categorically there would be no loss of sovereignty becomes extremely problematic. I would suggest that the comment of Lord Kilmuir, the Lord Chancellor in 1960, sums it up better than I ever could. (I apologise for the length but it does disclose the nature of the problems faced today) In a private report to Heath who was then responsible for negotiations with the then EEC he said

    “I must emphasise that in my view the surrenders of sovereignty involved are serious ones, and I think that as a matter of practical politics, it will not be easy to persuade Parliament or the British public to accept them. I am sure that it would be a great mistake to underestimate the force of objections to them. But these objections should be brought out into the open now because, if we attempt to gloss over them at this stage, those who are opposed to the whole idea of joining the Community will certainly seize on them with a more damaging effect later on.”
    Unfortunately Heath took the decision to gloss over the facts. So in 1973 we have Heath saying on a television broadcast
    "There are some in this country who fear that in going into Europe we shall in some way sacrifice independence and sovereignty. These fears, I need hardly say, are completely unjustified."
    The result is that all politicians are now largely seen as untrustworthy on the EU issue unless obviously and vociferously anti EU. Actions such as Brown avoiding signing the Lisbon Treaty with the other leaders, Cameron reneging on his ‘Cast iron guarantee’ etc. reinforce the impression.

    I leave it to others to speculate the likely outcome of a referendum where the results of a YES vote is openly proclaimed to be the adoption of the Euro and an acceptance that the UK would be fully incorporated into a US of E.

    By :
    Iwantout
    - Posted on :
    20/08/2012
  • The EU will do so much better with the UK's interferences OUT.

    By :
    matthias
    - Posted on :
    21/08/2012
  • Looking in from the outside it would be good riddance for the UK.

    Most of the EU would not trade with the UK outside of the EU as the barriers would go up immediately. Why should they losing a mere 60 million people when the eastern area has so much potential. And as for the banking fraternity, with the UK out of the EU the emphasis will move - as it has always done progressively - towards Germany. At least they export goods rather than rely on banking and the crooks that run that system.

    By :
    Karel
    - Posted on :
    21/08/2012
  • Karel: actually it seems you haven't exactly understood the whole of eurosceptic's "strategy", which is to get out of the EU first, but then come back and negociate agreements as they were in (just out) like Switzerland, Norway and Iceland who are in Schengen and apply most of european laws... just not participating to their making or vote! That's all they are calling for talking about refinding democracy and independance! They know other options sadly aren't credible.

    By :
    matthias
    - Posted on :
    21/08/2012
  • I don't get why the whole of the EU should bother recognising an In/Out Referendum in Britain would represent the same "high steak" for the continental side of the Channel, compared to the consequences of any result for the much tinier side.

    By :
    matthias
    - Posted on :
    21/08/2012
  • The UK in or out, the changes will rather be for London, Brussels hardly noticing the difference eitherways.

    By :
    matthias
    - Posted on :
    21/08/2012
  • Matthias,

    Because as we keep trying to tell you, the UK is a massive market for the EU, remember the figures I showed you before regarding German cars sales which show the UK as their biggest market ? Overall the official figures for March 2012 show the EU ran a trade surplus with the UK of £4.5bn. (Call it 5.69bn Euro.)

    The average per capita income in the EU adjusted by purchasing power parity is $31.6K. Those 60m people in the UK each have a per capita income of $38.9K (Germany $43.7K, Sweden $40.4K, France $35.6K, Italy $30.5K, Poland $20.3K, Hungary $19.6K, Latvia $15.6K, Bulgaria £13.6K, Rumania $12.8K, etc) and therefore are likely to spend considerably more on goods and services than countries with less disposable income. Please do not confuse the simple number of population with overall economic value as a trade partner.

    A trade war as seemingly advocated by Karel would hit all sides very badly indeed. Particularly vulnerable would be the major exporting countries in the continental EU given that as a proportion they export considerably more internally to EU nations than the UK does, ie as the figures above show if the UK withdraws and is excluded they will lose a significant portion of their market . The fact that the EU is a full signatory of the WTO would of course limit freedom of action of the EU in this context anyway.

    I do not want to see threats to trade by either side, but neither do I want to have any part of a US of E, if you want to go down the route of a Federal Europe fine, but I really don’t see why you then want to attack those who wish to disengage when you see us as currently your ambitions, surely you should be wishing us a good journey so we can all remain friends and continue to trade to the benefit of all.

    By :
    Iwantout
    - Posted on :
    21/08/2012
  • I believe Mathias speaks from the perspective of a Greek,which is that anything, repeat anything, is better than being out of the EU. Greece under those circumstances would revert to being a third world backwater, only fit for cheap holidays. Other than Ouzo and a few artisan foods I can't think of anything Greek the rest of the world might buy. The UK by comparison is an economic superpower - note I did say by comparison - and secession from the EU would not be the one sided negotiations we see with the Greek bail out.

    By :
    Charles_M
    - Posted on :
    21/08/2012
  • Iwantout,

    Your comparison with the EU in terms of income only works through taking Eastern Europe into account. Per capita, the Eurozone alone is already richer than the UK ($34.2K per inhabitant) and represents 5 times britain's population.

    No idea what you try to demonstrate with the huge amount of cars you say Germany sells to Britain like nowhere else (probably because there aren't any left of your own there). Anyway for top german export countries, France is still far before you (10%) followed by the US,(7%), britain being the same as the Netherlands (6.5%) who only have 25% of your population. For german imports now: the nederlands (9%), France (8%), China (7%), the USA and Italy (5.5%) rank above UK (5% together with Belgium who's just about 15% your population).

    What you don't seem to understand is that I'm taking countries all together because you want to leave ALL countries of the EU (though for the EU the UK would be the only single one leaving). So where an average country of the EU may lose about 3 or 4% of its export markets if the UK leaves (worse case senario) the UK would still lose 50%, the whole of the EU.

    In the bargaining, if you come up arguing you may just as well replace 50% of your trade with another partner on the other side of the planet (where?) for a cheaper price, the EU can just pretend it renounces on 3 or 4% of its trade with the UK (much more easily replacable). So in trade negociations, after the UK leaves the EU, which side is likely to have to make the most concessions, London or Brussels? Come on...

    What's more, the british would still need our products to function and would probably go on buying them anyway even taxed, though for continental companies, british competitors being out of the single market will allow increasing exports inside the rest of the EU (balancing out the few losses on the other side of the channel).

    May I remind you, finally that the country buying the most from others while not having that much to sell in exchange, is in a far less favorable position when it comes to trade negociations, than the one who has plenty to offer (to anyone) and doesn't need that much in return from others.

    But even at best, if you fabulously negociate the same agreements out as you are enjoying in now (why didn't you negociate them before joining then?) what is that really going to change for you? You get out of the EU to come back in fact? Just like Switzerland or Norway, you'll get in Schengen as well and apply most of our rules like any member, just without accessing the decision making or voting.

    If you feel more free and more democratic like that, just go: lose makets in Europe to the benefit of european companies, go on buying our products you anyway need and can't replace, don't bother participating in negocations for european laws and standards which you will still have to apply and especially, go on counting on our pity for you that will provide you with special poodle treatments. What more can we ask for?

    By :
    matthias
    - Posted on :
    21/08/2012
  • Matthias

    Fine. Let’s leave it there we have already argued this endlessly. You know beyond doubt that we are doomed and should be grateful for the EU and all the help it provides us. Thanks for your concern.

    Cheers

    By :
    Iwantout
    - Posted on :
    21/08/2012
  • Iwantout,

    Are you the queen or something to say "we" all the time ("we try to tell you", "we are doomed"...). I thought this was a european media according to which anyone could feel entitled in europe to give opinions about EU politics whatever your nationality or the country concerned.

    Maybe you try to exchange about the UK's future in Europe on blogs from the Telegraph rather, so you make sure you stay confined within british people having eurosceptic views (how exiting is that?). Myself I feel quiete at my place here adressing to any european and pushing for the UK to leave, not for it to rejoyce in wealth and democracy on planet mars, but for britain to crash further and ensure we put an end to that endless agony.

    By :
    matthias
    - Posted on :
    22/08/2012
  • Charles_M

    Apparently the UK's public deficit (about 100% of gdp now) is still exploding by 10% of gdp per year since 2008 (same as greece). And it's even going worse than expected if you look at the newspapers today. That leaves pretty open the chances for the UK's debt to soon reach if not the greek debt (already out of control), the italian one, an EU record. You are closer to it than spain and portugal's debt, not even mentionning France and germany (already stablized just above 80%).

    For the private sector (which can take over the economy if public finances start decreasing) the UK has the world record private debt (320% of GDP), when the US are just 100% and France or germany 50%. It's gonna be hard for you to find new money now that you are diving in austerity and that it doesn't even seem to work ...

    Otherwise you are already in double dip recession unlike the Eurozone and your economic basics are screwed up, everybody knows, since you decided to get rid of public services (which help softening crises and preserving economic potencial from destruction in order to survive for better days) but also of industries. That's why to dive instead into debt bankrupcy unlike productive germans or french also favoured by a prudent saving mentality.

    Your economy is also (like a lot of other things) very dependant on the US compared to other european countries and it doesn't really seem like a trump card. We'll see that after the november elections but I wouldn't be surprised if you go back begging the IMF once again (a real habit for you) when the markets start worrying the new president mandate.

    By :
    matthias
    - Posted on :
    22/08/2012
  • Eurosceptics claim that on every single issue, in every aspect Britain is better off outside the EU. If this were true Britain (and many other countries) would probably have already left, and certainly never have joined. Life isn't that easy I'm afraid chaps. Eurosceptics would be more convincing if they made the moral case for leaving and were at least honest about the economic sacrifices the country would have to make in the name of sovereignty.

    But the fact is Britain is an island a few miles off the European mainland. Its economy has never functioned independently from the rest of Europe and never will. Right now Europe is putting in place rules, laws institutions to codify, standardise and rationalise econonomic activity accross the continent. This process is unprecedented. And it is going to have exactly the same effect on Britain whether inside or outside the EU.

    No wonder "Europhobes" are seen in Britain as being on the loony fringe. No matter how often ("We" this "We" that) they claim on European blogs to speak for all English people, the fact is there is no serious political movement in the UK calling for Britain to leave. The only party that does is UKip and they get around 5% in general elections.

    By :
    James_London
    - Posted on :
    22/08/2012
  • Mathias, nearly all your statements are myths, lies or ignorance. mostly the latter judging from your posts. Got rid of public services??? IMF Bailout??? What newspapers do you read?
    Stay off the ouzo before putting pen to paper, prepare for grexit rather than waste your time here.

    By :
    Charles_M
    - Posted on :
    22/08/2012
  • Charles_M: if this is a news for you that britain privatised many of its public assets compared to civilised countries like Scandinavia, Germany or France, you haven't read the papers for 25 years in your country (you even tried to sell your police lately for the olympics). IMF did already bail out the UK in 1976, on British request, as no develloped country in Europe would ever dare begging.

    No idea what's ouzo. If the only thing you can come up with to corroborate your opinion (i.e. the economic datas I gave are "myths") is speculating on my nationality or the amount of alcohol in my blood, it seems you don't need any drop yourself to appear sensless and oaf. Maybe you should try boxing instead, better for you than analysis or debate.

    By :
    James_London
    - Posted on :
    22/08/2012
  • sorry last post was actually me, my flatmate was using my computer and I didn't notice I should change identity

    By :
    matthias
    - Posted on :
    22/08/2012
  • Matthias / James,

    I promised myself I won’t respond, but ……. My use of the pro noun ‘we’ on neither occasion suggests that I was taking decisions for others. Let us not argue about the mysteries of English grammar. ( I would by the way genuinely compliment you on your ability to discuss such a complex issue in a language that is not your first.)

    My last posting was more along the lines of personal frustration. We (as in you and I) have fundamental differing views of the situation and will obviously not agree or persuade each other. At no point have I ever suggested you should not put your view forward. I notice that you seem to be suggesting in your reference to euroscepticism and the Telegraph (which I do not take) that I might indeed be representing a wide spread view.

    At no point have I ever claimed the UK economy is in good condition. It was left in an absolute mess by the last administration and will take a considerable time to sort out. As you know, I would argue that we have options such as devaluation and quantitive easing that are not available to Euro countries and that does offer us a little more leeway.

    The revenue / expenditure figures yesterday were indeed disappointing and there may well yet have to be a change in government policies, but I believe those should be choices we debate and make. Yesterday and this morning I listened to German and Finnish ministers lining up to detail exactly what they expected the Greeks to do, these were not suggestions, these were orders. Remember the Irish, Portuguese, Spanish, Cypriots (and Italians ?) are also being given such orders.

    We are certainly in a double dip recession as measured by GDP although as the Bank of England commented earlier this month it is the like of which they have never seen before, given that unemployment figures have fallen for a number of months, the figure of 8% is not good, although it compares with an overall EU figure of 10.4% (11.2% in Eurozone). Total business investment showed a 14.2% increase in the first quarter of 2012 as compared to 2011, manufacturing investment up 25.4%. As I say a strange and contradictory set of data, but given that the Eurostat projection for the EU is 0% growth and -0.3% for the Eurozone perhaps we should just both accept that other than for a few exceptions such as Germany, neither side of the Channel is in good shape at the moment.

    As we know approximately 30% of the UK economy is focused on exports, just under half of which goes to or through the EU. We are therefore talking about 14 – 15% of the UK economy, a sizeable chunk indeed. Read my earlier postings, I have always acknowledged that the EU is an important trading partner. The EU regulations however apply to ALL businesses, whether or not they trade with the EU. The cost of putting ‘in place rules, laws institutions to codify, standardise and rationalise economic activity across the continent’ despite only applying to a minority of the economic activity in any given country acts as a significant cost and brake across the entire economy with consequent impact on employment etc.

    With regards to these costs, you will be aware that the government launched an audit recently to inform a cost benefit analysis of UK membership of the EU. Prior to joining the EEC all such exercises showed that economically membership of the EEC was actually slightly disadvantageous, but Heath and co believed that the perceived political advantage warranted membership. I suppose you could say that a lot of UK residents have never seemed to accept that the real or imagined political benefits justify the economic cost.

    If you change the opportunities open to business, in this case become less involved with the EU, the economy will inevitably move in new directions, this may certainly involve dislocation and depending on the degree of change more or less pain. Historic example; in the 1960s when the UK was negotiating to join the EEC 43% of our exports went to the Commonwealth and 29.8% went to the then EEC and EFTA combined. We changed our orientation towards Europe and away from the rest of the World, quickly the EEC became the most important partner, while our trade figures with the rest of the World stayed largely in surplus, with the EEC, EC and EU they went permanently into deficit.

    Please be absolutely clear for this next section I am NOT for one moment suggesting we can ever return to some hypothetical and mythical golden age of empire, just pointing out that there is a much bigger World beyond the EU. The Commonwealth has 2.1 trillion people, 15% and growing of Global GDP (as opposed to the shrinking EU figure) 40% of WTO business etc. The 54 states in the Commonwealth (not including applicant countries that were never part of the British Empire) tend to share similar cultural, legal and world views. Above all let’s remember there are 242 countries in the World not 26. Eurosceptics are often accused of being ‘Little Englanders’ (upsetting no doubt to the Welsh and Scots who according to the London School of Economics report 23/07/12 also have majorities who are Eurosceptic) maybe the term ‘Little Europeans’ will come to be recognised in time as describing a group who can’t see outside their own sphere of absolute control.

    With regards to leaving the EU, until the ratification of the Lisbon Treaty there was actually no recognised process allowing a country to do so, clearly Greenland did leave but that was more to do with becoming an independent state free from Danish control

    All the main UK political parties have at one point or another promised the UK population a referendum on membership of the EU and all have reneged. At the time of national elections they avoid issues such as Europe because of the difficulties it causes them and instead concentrate on health, education and the economy. In the one election where Europe is the central issue, the European Parliamentary elections, UKIP polled 16.5%, the Conservatives who I assume we can all agree tend to be Eurosceptic 27.7% and the Liberal Democrats, the only avowedly pro EU party in the UK 13.7%. Tell me why when you get second place in an election you are not a serious political movement but when you get fourth you are?

    To return finally to the sense of the original article, and indeed James’s request for moral honesty, I agree totally that for the benefit of all sides the UK needs to address the question ‘is it prepared to adopt the Euro and accept that it will be fully incorporated into a US of E?’ I agree with both of you, half measures are no longer tolerable. I believe and have tried to demonstrate that such a debate is primarily political with obvious economic elements. I would suggest the comment by Guido Westerwelle (German Foreign Minister) talking to the BBC 19/12/11 “Please understand for us Europe is much more than a currency or a single market... It is a political union we want." tends to agree.

    These really are my last words on this, thanks for taking the trouble to read them.

    By :
    Iwantout
    - Posted on :
    22/08/2012
  • Iwantout,

    you may have noticed that britain isn't Russia and the EU is british only bordering market, not just another one as japan, China, the Middle East and northern America. But let apart geography, Europe has historically kept playing a key factor role in British evolution probably even more specifically there maybe due to the fact it is an island

    i.e. celtic gaule, roman civlisation, germanic invasions, christianisation, feudalism, state building, reformation and civil wars, plagues and humanist renaissance, piratery and over seas expansion, entlightment and liberal revolutions, industrialisation and syndicalism, mass nationalism world wars and golden 60s reconstruction, decolonisation, and multipolar globalisation after berlin's wall fell, and rise of regionaly integrated world-trade blocs in Europe as in south east Asia, south/north America or Africa taking over.

    Surely there isn't now a magical force that would reverse this course all of a sudden because you'd your constitution.

    By :
    matthias
    - Posted on :
    23/08/2012
  • change constitiution cheers, enjoyed reading you though

    By :
    matthias
    - Posted on :
    23/08/2012

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