British group calls for reforms ‘from within’ the EU

Tony Van der haegen

You are absolutely right and I doubt there will be many in the UK who will disagree with your sentiments. It is all we have been saying for years, finally the message seems to be getting across.

Wouldn't be simpler if the UK reforms itself, instead of asking 27 other countries (representing >450 mil people) to change?
It could start getting rid of the house of Lords, as an example.

Where is the problem by the conservatives ??
They aren't aware of that economic damage as the suffer consequences of that!

I think the main problem is the "Flag"! Perhaps the EU can change the Flag to a british similar one because psychological seen this could change their mind!

Maybe a new kind of red color EU Confederated Flag would be appropriated due to similar colors as the british ...

And finally that "mass" immigration into United Kindom has to stop ergo slow down !

If the UK were to leave the EU we would still have zero tariff trade with the rest of the EU, just like Turkey does now, and Switerland, Norway, etc. I don't see the UK buying less of anything from the EU, nor the EU buying any less from the UK. The scare story that the UK would have no trading partners left is complete nonsense, even if EU trade at present is 50%. Most countries in the world are not in trading blocks, and life still goes on.

Were the UK to leave the EU I am sure we would want to have a trade arrangement with the EU, much as the EU would want to have a trade deal with the UK, simply look at the trade figures to realise why.

Once outside the EU we would of course have to implement EU laws and rules in respect of all goods we sold to the EU and we would have no influence over those rules. Equally clearly the EU would have to implement whatever laws and rules the UK decided to put in place if they wanted to trade with the UK and they would have no influence over those either. But the main point is all countries trade regardless of the ability to influence the legislation covering the goods and services being traded, for example none of us have any influence over the laws of countries as diverse as the US / Canada / China / Oman etc etc. but we still trade. The implicit threat over legislation is actually meaningless if you think about it for a minute. The basic trade rules are covered by the WTO anyway.

But this is all about economics. The European Project is fundamentally political in nature, the aim being to produce ultimately a single European federal state. In economics we will undoubtedly eventually come to a mutual agreement, but politically does anyone have any evidence at all that there is the faintest desire in the UK for membership of an ever closer Union ?

The europhile group described in the article as reported in the UK press (The Times 15/07/13) declare that the aim of ever closer union should be abandoned. These are the most pro EU people in the UK and even they are saying that matters have gone too far and reform is vital. Given this doesn’t everyone think a simple trade agreement without political ambitions would be in all our best interests?

Just so you realise the scale of the problem for federalists, a closing quote for you “The Netherlands is convinced that the time of an ‘ever closer union’ in every possible policy area is behind us…….. this is an issue which strikes a chord with many people across Europe. “ (21/06/13 official Netherland Government letter to the EU). It seems one of the founding countries is saying enough is enough !

Trade yes, union no. That is the UK position, for those of other countries what is the view in your country and would you dare even ask the people ? (Think of what the people of France, Netherlands, Ireland x 2, Denmark and Sweden said when they were asked various questions.)

@ Charles_M

London's financial place is integrated onto the European Union!

Norway has oil!

Switzerland has until NOW , taxevaders ,Black, corrupt money in it !

But it would not be proud to be british anymore if i loose a job cause "Far right Conservatives" and still saying life still goes on ! You're maybe promoting to expulse strangers outside UK and even loose Jobs to british people in the European Union !
Maybe i don't know if you have a "secured" job in saying that or have family ! Believe me ! Proud costs and a far more than many thinks!
Is that responsible ? I don't think so !
This remembers me the european , NO but the american revolutionary war again in 1775...!

And i came to the conclusion that the words 13th "Colonies" or 28 "member-states now" will have common sense .in to be destroyed by....but finally we don't let it be..

You seem to forget that the Eurozone's biggest export market is by far the UK, well ahead of the USA or China.

See:
http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/cache/ITY_PUBLIC/6-17062013-AP/EN/6-17062013-AP-EN.PDF

To suggest that if the UK went for a full out of the EU option the EC will make this harder to happen is plain daft - even the EC have more sense. We don't need or want federalist integration to maintain trade and non membership WILL NOT change the situation one bit.

In fact Britain would willingly become to the European Federation what Porto Rico is to the US's. Thank you so much!

The simple fact is that we have a negative trade balance with the eussr, we buy more from them than we sell to them so the eussr is not going to be stupid regarding trade agreements with us. Not being hamstrung by the lowest common denominator one size fits all fits no one over regulation that spews out of the eussr we will be able to progress at a faster pace. Leaving means we can return to a democratic elected government deciding on the way our nation is headed rather than the unelected democratically deficient political failures that make up the commission deciding on everything. It's a win win situation for us although I can see that the eussr will lose out from us leaving.

Well thank you even better if the UK is to become such a much bigger economy than Puerto Rico but willingly adopts with Brussels the same relationship San Juan has with Washington: remaining as you say attached to our market, trade, rules and strategy as if nothing had changed compared to now in terms of integration to the single market and trade-partnership conditions, only you being (unlike today) out of the controling process.

I guess in 2050 (in 40 years) the eastern countries having joined 10 years ago (as well as probably the whole of ex Yougoslavia, Ukraine and even Turkey which is now richer than most of these countries) will have known the same economic devellopment as Spain has since its membership 30 years ago, making the Spanish GDP per inhabitant today, even with the economic problems we know about for the last few years, just about the same level as the british one (or even the Italian one): around the average GDP per inhabitants in the EU28 member countries). So as these economies will probably by then have joined the Euro like Spain, the Eurozone may by then be almost twice bigger demographically and especially economically as it is now (already 8 times bigger today than the UK's GDP). So were the UK economy to gain about 10% by 2050, the Eurozone GDP may not be 8 time bigger as Britain's (as it is today) but about 14 times or so...

Britain's total GDP meanwhile may increase a little because of the demography but will probably stagnate per inhabitant (as so far it did compared to the EU's average since Spain joined 40 years ago, though Spain got in the meantime almost as rich per inhbitant as the UK) Britain (or maybe just England in 2050) will look even more than today like Puerto rico compared to the US: a confetti island integrated as you say to the whole continental federation as if it were a member of it (just like today trading 50% or more of Everything it sells or buy in the world with this partner) but only without any say in the decision process, since (self)excluded from the decision process: Basically, the EU50 by 2050 will first establish a common position and then send the commissioners to London see whether it doesn't please the English enough.

Engage brain / check facts before speaking...
Spain GDP/cap 97, UK 110
Spain AIC / cap 93, UK 120

Eurostat 2012 figures; 2013 will see more divergence.

Why does size matter so much to you? 14 times GDP? Facts or speculation? At least make reference to some facts.

What is a confetti island?

ChalrlesM, "You seem to forget that the Eurozone's biggest export market is by far the UK, well ahead of the USA or China".

Well to compare figures, the UK as a member of the EU may represent 12,3% of the eurozone's exports (compared to 11,4% for the US or 6,7% for China) but if this makes the UK so important for the EU, how strong do you then evaluate the position of the EU for the UK when it represents nearly 50% of the british exports or imports (compared to 10% for the british exports to the US and 7% of their imports from the US, or 3% of the UK's exports towards China and 8,5% of its imports from China)?!!!

If being one percent more than the US in the share of the EU world exports makes the UK such an attractive export market for the Eurozone, how attractive is the Single market for the UK’s exports then, when Britain’s exportations in the EU are 5 times those in the US (the UK’s imports from the EU are 8 times those in the US), not 1% more!

In 2050, The UK may have gained 10% more economic weight according to the demographic studies but the Eurozone may by then be twice richer and more populated as it is now (already today many times more than the UK's weight).

Barry davies, my knowledge unfortunatly doesn't allow me to use the same comaprisons as you neither towards totalitarian systems as the USSR nor concerning verbal comunication. I don't ever grasp anything of your analyses as it merely looks like you try all you can to affirm, repeat and get thrills out of juxtaposing endlessly nonsense comparisons, never even trying to justify them, just hoping someone one day ends up believing them, just because you'll have repeated them over and over again. Have fun

You should get a job at the corruption ridden, known fact, democratically deficient, known fact eussr Augustin your ability to make up pertinent facts from meaningless figures would fit very neatly into their propaganda machine. As the saying goes there are lies damn lies and then there is statistics, you don't seem to grasp this concept and use statistics which are not reliable in a very strange manner of trying to prove a point. To try to use the GDP of one nay=tion as a direct correlation with another is at best dubious at worst grossly incompetent. Our imports from the eussr nations are above 50% our exports are below 50% so your attempt to use it as a stable figure is also incorrect we have a negative trade balance with the eussr nations, so it is more important to them than it is to us.

I'm flatted though if such a clueless person as you thinks I'm weird.

Being morbidly fixated is not being weird Augustin, no matter how many times you say that you think it does. You are still incorrect in yur analysis as well, would you take 1 % of the the us GDP or 10% of luxembourgs GDP if you were given the choice. Also it doesn't matter what the figure for exports from the eussr are to us the only one that matters is the exports from the UK, I couldn't care less what the other nations in the eussr figures are.

Trade with Commonwealth, we have very low tariffs with those countries anyway. The EU (including UK) imports lots from there exports lots to them. So where is the big benefit of the Commonwealth for the UK or theirs to see the UK 'independent'. By the way, the UK IS independent. It is a member of a club of nations. Calling it the EUSSR is also insulting for those countries that were in the real Warsaw pact.. (do you have any military barracks by the EU with weapons ready to shoot you inside? Is the EUKGB going around with poisoned umbrellas. Barry, you suffer from paranoia. Have you been in the USSR or eastern block. There are probably scores more CIA and KGB spies in the UK than any "EU" ones.

By the way, the fact that I am called Jorge does not mean that I am writing from Spain as seems to be implied above, I am educated in the UK ... all degrees BSc to PhD in economics and go there regularly, so I probably know slightly more of some of these issues than many. As a professional political-economist I can assure you that more likely than not, from an economic point of view, your exit is more risky than positive. It is certainly based more on an emotive stance than a theoretically defendable one.

Loss of sovereignty? Well that is not so much an EU event. Globalisation controls much of what a state can do, because any protectionism is punished by markets. International product standards, industry standards, consumer demand, etc ensure that much independence is a fiction, governments are becoming marginal caretakers.

I think that if the UK leaves, its citizens will be tremendously disenchanted after 1 year, because all of the miracle improvements they expect will not be there. The anti-EU scaremongers have invented so many superpowers for the EU and have exposed so many miraculous attributes to an "independent" UK, that reality, whatever it is, will look bleak. The UK will have no bigger say on nearly anything (maybe less), trade and financial markets, international standards, treaties and simply the real world dictate what the UK can do in most areas. I see, by nature and inevitably, the Conservatives and the UKIP suffering a crushing defeat, because there will be no EU to blame for everything. The Eurosceptics will be accused of mismanaging the economy and putting it unnecessarily at risk, not averting the negative implications and not delivering the expected paradise of the strong independent rich and successful nation the citizens will have been led to believe they would get. The penny will drop.

Lets see in 6 years time....

CharlesM, I'm not saying it is to diminish, I'm saying that what's true for the UK (in such a strong position for you, as the first destination for the euro zone’s exports, above the US and China by 1%, i.e. at 12% against 11% for the US and 7% for China) should also be true then for the EU, as the latter represents a destination for the UK's exports 5 times more important than the British trade with the US (i.e. 50% for the EU against 10% for the US or 3% to China). Therefore, if I follow your logic, the EU’s share of the British foreign trade should place Brussels in as much of a favourable position (within a negotiation process) as the UK would be with only 1% more share of the eurozone’s exports than the US.

As Doha rounds have failed (as previously every other rounds of puppet negotiations at the WTO) because of the world’s obvious incapacity to work altogether on common grounds, I wonder where you got this idea of a world going anywhere near a global single market. Are Americans in your views ready to accept renouncing on their home market protection (buy American acts, monetary "creation" of dollars by the FED, quotas of steel, agricultural or aero-spatial subsides...) and especially consent letting some sort of independent world body regulate them? Is the Chinese communist Party also going to stop Begging's dumping and devaluation of the Yuan in order to embrace a world free trade zone and maybe integrate economically with the US (they are currently strategically and economically fighting with in the Pacific?). Maybe Russia is also poised to let BP and Royal Shell take control their gas? Also of course South America (especially Brazil, Argentina, Venezuela, Equator...) are rejoicing at the idea of seeing American companies accessing freely their economies.... That, I’m afraid, has worked with Europe, but the whole world is very far from considering at all such an option and no one anyway seems to be taking this direction what so ever.

What today seems to be developing both politically and economically in the world is rather a system of multi-polar regionally-integrated blocs organising themselves on a continental scale and fighting each others (whether you like it or not): North America, Latin America, Europe, Russia, China, India, South-Asia/Pacific and Africa. Only an integrated Arab World hasn’t yet emerged (in Dubai?) but I’d better predict it will soon join this world concert of a handful of integrated zones, comparably powerful and competing with each others (rather than saying they would soon become a member of a highly-hypothetical World Single Market, everyone happily and peacefully would start trading in freely.

Europe only managed to create a Single Market on its territory because before every nation-states ended up ruined, depraved of every strategic positions they individually held in the world for 5 centuries (since 2 world wars happened to be fought on its soil and destroyed them all at once). Maybe the day Europe (again), the US, China, Russia, India and Brazil destroy each others completely, they’ll have to start everything from scratch and only then we may consider the possibility of working altogether for each other’s good under the same rules, if we ever wish to do so... But sadly not before.

Interestingly enough for you though, if anyone at all among Brussels, Washington, Beijing, Delhi, Moscow or Brasilia would be advocating for making spontaneously the smallest step towards the direction of a “World single market”, as you say, it would be the EU (with more or less hypocrisy)!

You don't analyze fact they are by definition factual, so what's to analyze?

You clearly read to much eussr propaganda.

I have visited the Warsaw pact countries it's surprising how many people living there who think they were better off with the Russians subsidising their countries, than they are now.

If you aren't British then you have no idea what we are thinking and your wishful thinking won't alter that.

I read proper newspapers, not the eussr propaganda ones.

I don't read the Daily Mail it is far to pro eussr for my liking, I got my information on the german poll from a german source.

There will never be any reform in the eussr, as shown by the enforced implementation of the constitution.

No matter how many lies pro eussr pundits try to make us believe some of us aren't so easily fooled, independence from the overbearing micro managing unelected commission will suit us just fine not having to subsidize a large proportion of the continent of europe will suit us just fine, we will also have the benefits of a free market and no crazy laws to hold back our development any more, plus we will get all our fishing grounds back, and not have to pay out for useless french farmers anymore. It is a shame that you are more interested in your personal mianderings around the continent than the benefits of others.