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UK set for youth-focused EU referendum campaigns

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Published 04 January 2013, updated 10 January 2013

A landmark speech by British Prime Minister David Cameron later this month will trigger campaigns to persuade young people to choose between staying in or opting out of the EU, as the issue moves to the fore of the country's domestic political agenda in 2013.

Representatives for and against UK membership in the EU told EurActiv they are on stand-by to set campaigns in motion to woo the country’s biggest swing demographic: those aged between 18 and 44, in a year which will see Europe move to the forefront in domestic politics.

Popular advocates will include pop stars and high-profile business leaders, such as Sir Richard Branson.

Cameron’s speech, to be delivered in mid-January, will commemorate the 40th anniversary of Britain's EU membership, and clarify his Conservative Party’s plans for the UK’s continuing engagement with Europe.

The prime minister will seek to mollify eurosceptic Conservative deputies with promises to repatriate powers from the EU and a general pledge of a referendum on EU membership after the 2015 general election, without specifying what question may be asked.

Incubating the campaigns

“We have created and are incubating a 'better off in' campaign, we have that domain name and that web site registered,” Peter Wilding, director of the Centre for British Influence Through Europe (CBIE), told EurActiv.

The CBIE is a new umbrella group formed this year to campaign for the UK to remain in the EU.

Current opinion polls show the country finely balanced on the issue of EU membership, with euroscepticism gathering pace.

Nigel Farage, the leader of the United Kingdom Independence Party (UKIP) - which will campaign for the UK to leave the EU - is putting pressure on Cameron to make a clear referendum pledge in his speech. "The only way to properly engage young people is to have a clear, definitive question,” Farage told EurActiv.

Although all the major parties are likely to campaign for continuing EU membership, there is unease, particularly amongst Conservative MPs, about growing popular support for UKIP, which polls suggest jumped almost 10% to 14% in the last year.

A UKIP source told EurActiv that the party is already readying itself to campaign using social media and to appeal to the younger generation “who have no recollection of the last referendum”, which was held in 1975, two years after Britain's entry into the then European Common Market.

Pro-EU membership Wilding said UKIP was correct in its analysis that 18-44 year old Britons represent the key swing constituency to attract in a referendum.

Both sides want to look attractive to young people

Another reliable UKIP source said that the party is considering using a young pop singer as the ‘face’ of its campaign.

Meanwhile, leading figures in the pro-Europe campaign are seeking to obtain the endorsement of a charismatic business figure, such as the popular Virgin Group founder Sir Richard Branson, who could appeal to younger voters, to act as a figurehead for the pro-European cause.

Those hoping Branson - who is known to favour EU membership - might be persuaded to fulfil this role, will be encouraged by a New Year’s blog post he penned in which he warned that “an [EU] exit would be very bad for British business and the [UK] economy as a whole”.

Branson warned in his blog that Britain would be foolish to quit the EU because Europe is likely to be in “far better shape” than the United States in a few years’ time.

The issue of the UK’s continuing role is also being debated in Europe. Over the Christmas break, Council President Herman Van Rompuy warned Cameron that excessive demands for repatriated powers threatened to derail both the EU and the UK.

"If David Cameron proposes a catalogue of opt-outs, derogations, red lines and rebates for Britain to pick and choose, then he will strengthen the argument for a formal association for the UK," Andrew Duff, a Liberal Democrat MEP who heads the Union of European Federalists, said in The Times newspaper on 31 December.

The Liberal Democrats, governing coalition partners of Cameron's Conservatives, are traditional backers of the country's EU membership. Cameron's speech could unsettle his coalition partners.

The Union of European Federalists is expected to publish its own draft new EU treaty within months, which will include such an "associate membership" proposal, Duff said.

Such "associate membership" could see Britain lose its commissioner, its MEPs and seat on the Council of Ministers.

Meanwhile former EU Commission President Jacques Delors also joined the debate, telling the German business daily Handelsblatt on 29 December that he could envisage the UK having a looser relationship with the EU, with a new free trade agreement, or as a "privileged partner".

Positions: 

“Far from leaving Europe, Britain should be leading Europe into the next 40 years,” said Peter Wilding, director of the Centre for British Influence through Europe (CBIE).

“We are an influential country. Since we joined, Europe has become an English-speaking power in which the UK has led in spreading the advantages of open markets, economic growth and a political culture based on social responsibility and democracy. These are attractive and self-evident British values,” Wilding concluded.

"Young people won't just be fooled into voting one way or another by celebrities or Apps; my experience of speaking at schools, colleges and universities across the country is they're far more anti-EU than older people," said Nigel Farage MEP, the leader of UKIP.

"We're now at a point where there ought also to be the option of various formal tiers of [EU] membership," Andrew Duff, a Liberal-Democrat MEP, heads the Union of European Federalists.

“The UK has always been a successful trading nation and has built relationships around the world to help its companies prosper. However, today global business relies on large trading agreements created by regions and not by countries,” said Sir Richard Branson, the British entrepreneur.

"If the British cannot support the trend towards more integration in Europe, we can nevertheless remain friends, but on a different basis," former Commission President Jacques Delors told the German business daily Handelsblatt on 29 December.

"The British are solely concerned about their economic interests, nothing else. They could be offered a different form of partnership," Delors said.

Meanwhile Herman Van Rompuy, president of the European Council, said in an interview with the Guardian newspaper that a British exit would cause immense damage to Europe, hurting both Britain and its EU partners. It would be like seeing a "friend walk off into the desert".

"All member states can, and do, have particular requests and needs that are always taken into consideration as part of our deliberations. I do not expect any member state to seek to undermine the fundamentals of our co-operative system in Europe," Van Rompuy said.

Next steps: 
  • Jan. 2013: Cameron to give landmark speech on Europe
  • May 2015: Last date by which UK must have next general election
Jeremy Fleming

COMMENTS

  • Try and explain that to Mrs Duffy?

    By :
    Mark Thompson
    - Posted on :
    04/01/2013
  • The UK membership issue raises a big challenge for the EU as a whole. In the current absence of a clear vision of Europe's future that should be proposed by the Commission and the European Parliament, the issue of a "Europe à la carte" will probably dominate the 2014 debate. Pro-europeans will be put on the defensive since they will have no clear alternative to oppose . The responsibility of current leaders of the Commission and of the EP is therefore clearly engaged. As for the "Union of European Federalist" it is doing its homework and has issued concrete proposals to re-inforce european unity and solidarity (see "uef.fr") . Jean-Guy Giraud/ President/ UEF FRANCE

    By :
    Jean-Guy Giraud
    - Posted on :
    04/01/2013
  • A cold membership of the UK with no heart involved would make Britain the "dysfunctional relative" of the European Union.
    Either fully involved or good neighbours please!

    By :
    elio PENNISI
    - Posted on :
    04/01/2013
  • It is sad that in the 21st century the Brits still have the mentality of being "special" and that Europe interfering too much in their internal affairs. Well, all other 26 member states could possibly say the same thing. But they are more or less committed to the EU project and in times of hardships are not trying to immediately opt out of the union. It's more than clear that in the long run the economic benefits of being part of the EU outweigh the costs and that the only future for Europe is the common market. Is Sir Richard Branson one of the few people in this country who is indeed realising that?

    By :
    disillusioned
    - Posted on :
    04/01/2013
  • Just for balance ... I am British ... I do not want to be "European" (as my nationality). There are 2 different sort of 'Europes' on offer. Because the British people were told we were joining a 'common market' we were happy with that - nobody here wants to join a Federal Europe - we want different things - YOU must recognise this and work to come up with a reasonable way in which we can all live in the same space ... Personally I want nothing to do with the EU - who needs an extra layer of gov't? But I am encouraged to hear proposals along the line of 'associate membership' ... maybe ... just maybe ... you understand that the UK will never join a 'US or Europe'. PS - Sir Richard Branson is so out of touch its unreal ... being a billionaire he might just have different values, needs and wants to the rest of us ????

    By :
    Jonnie Armstrong
    - Posted on :
    04/01/2013
  • Hi Jonnie,
    Glad that you replied and I truly respect your opinion. It’s the decision of the British people after all whether you would like to be part of the EU or not, and I believe the rest of Europe should respect the path you chose. Let me, however, mention a few things I’ve been thinking about and see if we can reach to some kind of agreement.

    First a common market requires an extra layer of government. You cannot have a common economic area without a regulatory institution since, as we all know, markets need to be regulated in order to avoid externalities and provide the best environment for consumers. So to answer your question as to who needs an extra layer of government, well, us, the participants in the common market. It should be also noticed that this government must take into account the national traits of the different members and come up with optimal decisions concerning the entire functioning of the market. And just to point out, there is sometimes a trade-off between what each member state demands and what’s optimal for the functioning of the entire economic bloc. And I am sure that in the long run, when the newer EU members converge to the GDP levels of the older members (some slowly, others more rapidly), then the EU will indeed be a mighty economic bloc. And who doesn’t want that? Does Britain think that being outside of the bloc it will be better off? Or maybe what Britain (or England, not sure about the rest) wants is just to be part of the project in good times and immediately leave in more uncertain times? I sincerely hope this statement is wrong, but I am sure many people in other countries get this impression.
    But unfortunately from what I see there’s a lot of populism going on around as apparently there is an identity issue. I do not see a problem in being both a Brit and an European. I mean geographically all countries in Europe are European, so….where’s the problem. Now Federal Europe, well, there’s apparently no need for it as we already have it. The free movement of goods, labour and capital has been in power for a while (more than a while actually) and despite all the problems related to it, most Europeans like and endorse all these freedoms. And there will be even more and more benefits to it in the future as the world is indeed becoming very globalized and a few new members join the bloc.

    So something like a Federal Europe we already have, now of course many people fear that a pan-European state will put an end to the nation states…well, even if this happens, such a process will be slow, and it might occur in 100-200 years time, if ever. I am pretty much contended with the current status of the union. But why is national pride still so important in the 21st century. Isn't it better if we put more emphasis on the economic benefits of being part of the EU? Also, aren't the differences between us way too small, as it is the European continent, for us to be split up?

    Again, this is just my opinion and here I tried to express it presenting logical arguments. But we all should respect other people's opinions and if you, the Brits, decide that you do not want to participate in the European project, the rest of the member states should respect your choice. EU is not the USSR after all and this is what it makes it good.

    By :
    disillusioned
    - Posted on :
    04/01/2013
  • @ Jonnie Armstrong

    "Sir Richard Branson is so out of touch its unreal ... being a billionaire he might just have different values, needs and wants to the rest of us ???? "

    Spot on Jonnie I just love it when the Europhiles roll out the big guns who are stinking rich and out of touch. If it all goes belly up we are left to pick up the bits and take the pain, while Branson loads up his 'private jet' and Effs Off to Necker Island or somewhere else suitably pleasant. (http://www.neckerisland.virgin.com/)

    George Mc

    By :
    George Mc
    - Posted on :
    04/01/2013
  • Jonnie and disillusioned - I have very much enjoyed the timbre and tone of your comments. Cool, calm reflection is required rather than the "white heat" rhetorc that will often surface here (by the way, Happy New Year to you all, including you, George Mc; nice to see you are still here to add to the coolness and calm!!). "It's more than clear that in the long run the economic benefits of being part of the EU outweigh the costs..." I have to disagree, disillusioned. I have an understanding of the cost to the UK but I have never seen an equivalent "hard figure" benefit to us other than a kind of "safety in numbers, the global situation, difficulties if nation states arranging treaties with other large blocs such as the USA, China etc, all nation states themselves!). I despise socialism and, as far as I can make out (current nation bailouts are a good example) the EU's debt union is merely a soviet collectivisation programme as are all of the other policies. Ultimatley leading to developing policies that will broadly work for the majority of the 27 countries. What about those for whom certain policies don't work? We signed up to a Common Market, not a United States of Europe. British politicians have lied about this issue since McMillan/Heath. I see no reason to trust the current encumbents at national and European level. My apologies for the length of this but I would leave with two last questions. 1)Do you think that a majority of the 500 million people in Europe would vote for a US of E if they were given a referendum? 2) Do you think that, as further integration emerges, the 27 countries will give their electorates referenda?

    By :
    Don Latuske
    - Posted on :
    04/01/2013
  • The reality is that European integration is an outdated 1950s dream. Countries like Canada and Australia are going round the world signing free trade agreements right now, while the UK remains stuck to the fatally flawed Eurozone, incapable of lowering trade barriers elsewhere. David Cameron's platform of unspecified repatriations and an unspecified referendum is a joke that just counts as "more of the same". It's time we look beyond the aging, crisis-ridden Europe and start becoming a global trading power again. More exports, lower food costs, less regulation, and restoring democratic self-governance to boot. What's not to like?

    By :
    Tim
    - Posted on :
    04/01/2013
  • @Johnie

    Well if the british love the single market so much, why don't they understand their participation in it and their enjoying of priviledged access to continental markets (the same way EU buisnesses access the UK markets favorably compared to any non-member) involves defining and applying together common standards and rules, as well as obeying them and contibuting to a common budget in order to make this common economic space function.

    Do they love the single market only as long as it adjusts to british standards? Strange to be advocating for a free trade zone without tariffs and barriers or protectionist measures and then refuse in the meantime to play by the common rules, claiming each should be able to build up walls of legislation for their own individual interest? How can that ever work logically together?

    By :
    uk-skeptic
    - Posted on :
    04/01/2013
  • Not a problem ... we can trade with you just as we do any other foreign country ... (you sell more to us than we do to you so not really a drama to the UK...). Keep your single market ... we will keep our £50 milion + per day (direct costs) (along with the many more times pe day it costs us in indirec costs) and trade with you just as anyone else does .... unless you want to cut your nose off to spite your face ...

    By :
    Jonnie Armstrong
    - Posted on :
    04/01/2013
  • Not a problem ... we can trade with you just as we do any other foreign country ... (you sell more to us than we do to you so not really a drama to the UK...). Keep your single market ... we will keep our £50 milion + per day (direct costs) (along with the many more times pe day it costs us in indirec costs) and trade with you just as anyone else does .... unless you want to cut your nose off to spite your face ...

    By :
    Jonnie Armstrong
    - Posted on :
    04/01/2013
  • @ disillusioned

    What are you disillusioned about? Not a good mental position to argue positively from old boy.

    “It is sad that in the 21st century the Brits still have the mentality of being "special" and that Europe interfering too much in their internal affairs. Well, all other 26 member states could possibly say the same thing. “

    I will ignore the arrogance of that statement. Which countries in Europe have citizens who are not very proud and who feel that they are not special? I will be interested to hear your answer to that one.

    Yes, the EU does interfere in too much of the minutiae of nation states everyday lives. Contrary to what is said by the Commission they just must have control. We have a classic example just announced by the EU court who have ruled that it is discriminatory for Insurance Companies to set different rates for men and women when it comes to Insurance (all types) and Pensions. All of the aforesaid are rates set by Actuaries, who quite rightly from experience say that young men have more driving accidents than young women and therefore charge the men more. It is also a fact that men do not live as long as women so pensions for women will be paid for longer. On that basis men get more per £1000 invested in annuities. This is not difficult and has worked for absolutely ages. However the EU court has declared this illegal and in so doing driven women drivers insurance rates up and wrecked quite a few married couples retirement plans.

    It is not the Richard Branson's of this world who will speak up or understand what is going on. Mr Branson is a businessman and will speak up for whatever suits his business interests. Please do not confuse his interests with the interests of the country or the wishes of the people!

    In another post you mention that in order for the Common Market to work, a level of government is required. Without going into that in the same length I would simply say yes, no problem. It has to be controlled. disillusioned, this may worsen your condition but it needs saying although I doubt if the Europhiles will hear, that is what we thought we had joined. Most of us would be quite happy with that, but no, the commission could not stop there. They want a US of E where they can control everything and everyone. Let's cut to the chase here, what is it that the EU wants from the UK? I would suggest it is to have us as part of the single market and for the substantial sums we contribute to the cause, our diplomatic strengths and eventually of course our Military.

    I never want to see my grandchildren getting involved with some EU Army fighting for something that we don't believe in, feel no affiliation with and if you were to be believed, have no pride in. That rather shoots your point to pieces about National Pride because believe me you are nothing without it (whatever your nationality). In summary we disagree as the EUSSR would give the old USSR a run for its money anytime. My pride in my country is not for sale and UK citizens do not have the right to deny our Sovereignty to future generations simply for, possibly, a little economic advantage.

    @Don and @ Tim. Absolutely agree chaps.

    George Mc

    By :
    George Mc
    - Posted on :
    04/01/2013
  • I think we should let the Britt's go. We manage with out them very well.

    By :
    menesdorfer
    - Posted on :
    04/01/2013
  • PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE .... Just let us go !!!!
    (If our politicos would give us a vote we would be gone but they (like Branson) are only looking after their future selves (EU jobs)...)

    By :
    Jonnie Armstrong
    - Posted on :
    04/01/2013
  • @George Mc
    That's precisely the point. Your military. Your nation. Do you think the contemporary military conflicts Britain is getting involved are just and fair? Or let me put it straight, the UK has always pursued its interests and is often times at odds with many other "continental" countries because of this....I really hate politics coz for me this is just a bunch of populism and it's not my nation which makes me proud (irrespective of where I come from). All nations in Europe at some point in the past had their great moments and also their moments of crisis. And from what I see, believe me, the EU would rather refrain from using military power rather than partake in a military conflict. Plus we have NATO for this so I see some military EU forces only sent to a peacekeeping mission rather than bombing stuff....enough about that, but the national pride thing is way too cheap coz, again, every state could present the same logic, but we're apparently not doing it....

    On the insurance issue, well, I remember a recent statement of Vivian Redding trying to impose on companies quotas for women. I personally disagreed with it. The government of my country too. I didn't pass from what I remember, so I tend to agree that sometimes the EC might push for leftist policies (kinda feminist) which not always make sense plus the women would not want them coz this might engender a whole set of negative externalities. But, I also think your NHS is extremely communist and inefficient. I spent 2 years in the UK and believe me, I remained disappointed with many of the leftist stuff going on there. Many other so called pro-European states are way more free market than the UK. So this cannot be an excuse. It's not free trade what you really want. My impression is that you guys still perceive your country as an Empire. Well, no offence but these times are over.

    Also, being part of the EU you can still be very close trading partners with Canada and the rich in diamonds Australia. I don't see why not. And believe me, no one is still pushing for US of E. Again I personally do not think a US of E is a bad thing but the process towards it should be slow.

    @ Tim
    "More exports, lower food costs, less regulation, and restoring democratic self-governance to boot. What's not to like?"
    You just described another very pro-European country but definitely not the UK (you can guess which one). The UK simply has a structural problem with its economy and this is where the problem lies. According to the data your level of aggregate exports is low, food prices ( I remember them) are way too high, rent prices in London are outrageous. But I do not think the EU has anything to do it. As far as the Eurozone is concerned, yes, I admit, it was based on trust and some states took advantage of the situation. But now all the necessary reforms are on their way. I mean the problematic states are simply forced to implement them. The US, your beloved ally, however, will be facing more and more difficulties in the future if they simply do not do the same. So my opinion, true, also my wish, is that the entire Eurozone retains its integrity and overcomes the sovereign debt crisis. Believe me, the Germans are not stupid people, they know why they are paying. (PS my country is still not part of the Eurozone but I wish it joined soon).

    @menesdorfer
    Hi menesdorfer,
    well, they have the freedom to decide. It would be great if the EU remains intact, but as you said, if they continue to perceive themselves as something very different from Europeans, fair enough, they have the freedom to set their own path and decide what they wanna be.

    Sorry for the long posts guys

    By :
    disillusioned
    - Posted on :
    04/01/2013
  • Elio Pennisi is absolutly right. Clear words and clear business.

    By :
    antonio cristovao
    - Posted on :
    04/01/2013
  • @Armstrong

    We arren't going to stop you that's for sure! I think it's wise for you people to leave as soon as possible as you people don't want to belong.

    So, I think we should let them be alone in their tiny Island and dream about the lost empire. As I said we are going to manage with out them very well, we allways did and going to do so in the future to.

    I'm proud to be a Eropean

    By :
    menesdorfer
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • Please LET US !!! But ... if you think that we would stay on our island alone then you are wrong we want to trade with the WORLD not just a tiny part of it ....

    By :
    Jonnie Armstrong
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • I am proud to be British ... my pride has a history ...

    By :
    Jonnie Armstrong
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • @pennisi

    you wrote "Either fully involved or good neighbours please!"
    Now if the Britts dont wanna have us how the good neighbourship would work out? It's like their former empire if they can't decide than they leave or gets thrown out. They are not making themselfs popular and that is worldwide. The good neighbourship is based on respect. Give and take but, some people just don't know what that means.

    By :
    menesdorfer
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • @Amstrong

    Why don't you do it? Nobody (according my to my record) stopped you. It's just parhaps the world doesn't wanna have you.

    By :
    menesdorfer
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • @armstrong

    Oh yeah and your pride history is rubbing the world killing the Indians the Maories the blacks and should I go on?

    By :
    menesdorfer
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • No ... you should not go on .. because you are a racist idiot .... I never brought up such issues ... so why should you ?

    By :
    Jonnie Armstrong
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • I want to be a good neighbour ... you want a cash cow ... the two are not compatable ....

    By :
    Jonnie Armstrong
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • @ disillusioned
    Let me please put something to bed straight away. Too many of the posters unjustifiably accuse us of having an Empire mentality, which is totally unfair. Please don't confuse that fact that we had an Empire which has now become a Commonwealth and we still have good relations with them as this covers most of the English language nations in the world. No agenda, just a fact!
    The second thing that needs dealing with is for no reason at all you bring in the statement “The US, your beloved ally, however, will be facing more and more difficulties in the future if they simply do not do the same. “
    Who mentioned the US here? If for any reason you think that we argue our case hard on this blog then you should see some of the stuff that flies back and forth across the Atlantic, where often no quarter is given. It is not just the European Arrest Warrant that is a can of worms, many of us have been fully engaged in arguing against the disgraceful treaty that Mr Blair agreed with the USA. You are correct though if your assertion is that we place a lot more trust in the USA than we would in many EU countries. Many of them have been treacherous in the past and less than helpful at other times.

    “Your military. Your nation. Do you think the contemporary military conflicts Britain is getting involved are just and fair? Or let me put it straight, the UK has always pursued its interests and
    is often times at odds with many other "continental" countries because of this. “
    Yes, our military and proud of them and I have no problem with being British. Yes, we are located off the coast of continental Europe but that has never made me 'European'. I have got to say that being at odds with other continental countries will lose me no sleep. The only thing I would concede is that it was Blair (him again) that took us to war in Iraq on a lie. There was not a huge amount we could do about it apart from protest, which millions did.

    Your knowledge and opinion of what the EU wants militarily is definitely lacking.
    “And from what I see, believe me, the EU would rather refrain from using military power rather than partake in a military conflict. Plus we have NATO for this so I see some military EU
    forces only sent to a peacekeeping mission rather than bombing stuff. “

    It doesn't take much reading to know that the EU wants to have a civilian and military HQ independent of NATO and at the recent EU meeting talked about countries pooling their assets and to agree on the way forward etc. etc. Some of the Scandinavian countries have good military (Norway & Denmark can be relied on) but in EU terms it is really down to France and Britain and as Libya proved we could not do it without the USA. Maybe that is why Europeans dislike them so much! That is why we must have NATO as we could not function in any major way without them.

    What would the EU do if Mr Putin and the Russians got a bit aggressive and took a fancy to some EU Territory? If there were no NATO and the EU followed your non military view point then the Russians could push from Moscow to Madrid in a couple of weeks with not a lot to stop them. I for one would not rule that possibility out!

    “Believe me, the Germans are not stupid people, they know why they are paying. “
    Of course they do, using the Euro for them is like using a devalued currency and makes their exports really cheap.

    NHS! It can of course be improved and to a certain extent you are throwing money into a bottomless pit as medical science and drugs improve quicker than we can pay for them. However I am surprised that a 2 year stint in the UK would inform your opinion reliably (without help from UK citizens) on how well or not the NHS is.
    You have admitted that you are not really into politics so I will merely point that we would love to go and negotiate a trade agreement with Australia and Canada. However this is verboten. We have to wait for Brussels to negotiate for us and the other 26 countries.

    Good Luck and sorry for the long tomb.
    George Mc

    By :
    George Mc
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • @Armstrong

    If somebody goes out with the statement "I'm proud to be a European" than that person hardly to be called a racist. And I don't wanna have a cash cow, actualy in this country we pay more that we ever going to get back.

    By :
    menesdorfer
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • menesdorfer ... that wasn't why I called you a racist ... look at your post above mine ... and IF you read it you will see why I called you a RACIST ... I still do ...

    By :
    Jonnie Armstrong
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • and as for cash cow ... if we are paying for something we do not want ...

    By :
    Jonnie Armstrong
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • @elio PENNISI
    @antonio cristovao
    @menesdorfer

    A cold membership of the UK with no heart involved would make Britain the "dysfunctional relative" of the European Union.
    Either fully involved or good neighbours please!

    elio your post is very reasonable
    It is up to the British people, but I will vote for being a very good neighbour

    @@menesdorfer

    Now if the Britts dont wanna have us how the good neighbourship would work out? It's like their former empire if they can't decide than they leave or gets thrown out. They are not making themselfs popular and that is worldwide. The good neighbourship is based on respect. Give and take but, some people just don't know what that means.

    'Do grow up old boy. There isn't a world there that you can back up with facts, just hot air and hitting out.

    By :
    George Mc
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • @Armstong

    You can give me names as much as you wan't you won't hurt my pride.

    By :
    menesdorfer
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • menesdorfer ... I do not understand your last post ... perhaps this is a alergy for the UK-EU relationship ?

    By :
    Jonnie Armstrong
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • Here in Australia we maintain our independence, we don't sign onto foreign dictatorships such as the one that has self-servingly grown out of Brussels. Does the UK think that being governed from Brussels would be good for their country? How long would it be before they took over your Treasury, your government?

    Dangerous stuff. Winston Churchill was not of my era, but from history we can only deduce he would turn in his grave at the mere idea the UK ever bound itself to this hideously invasive EU.

    It' sad, even shocking, that our British relatives continually despair as to the controls forced upon their country men and women by a few foreign, overly powerful, insistent, unelected European bullies.

    We see Nigel Farage, we listen, and we cheer.

    Open borders have wreaked havoc on British culture. There are many part of England where English is no longer spoken. A travesty. Brussels wants England to succumb so they can exercise something in European political DNA that devolves power away from the people and into the hands of dictators.

    When England ditched Australia to join the European Common Market, we just put our heads down, bums up and found new trading partners. The UK doesn't have to crawl around basket case Europe. They can look elsewhere, e.g. to burgeoning Asia which in the business sense, will produce economies that eclipse the USA within five years.

    Don't stick with antique Europe. Retrieve British pride, unlock the EU shackles and throw away the key.

    By :
    Sydney girl
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • @Sydney Girl

    Thank you... Thank you...for being a breath of fresh air and confirming so succinctly what should be the way forward for the UK. We just need Mr Cameron to get a bigger pair of cojones and its sorted!

    George Mc

    By :
    George Mc
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • Well said Sydney girl !
    I hope we have the courage ...

    By :
    Jonnie Armstrong
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • I suspect that as more eastern european countries join the EU in the next year, the UK will be swamped with immigrants from them. In addition to the normal third world welfare scroungers, we will have to put up with them from Turkey etc. If the referendum is a simple in or out, enough Brits will so fed up with the collapsing NHS, welfare, schools and the rise in poverty, that a no would almost be certain. However, given that many MPs see Europe as providing a useful trough for their noses when they either retire or lose their seats that an in out question will never be asked. Anymore than it will be asked in Scotland. Brits dont trust their politicians hence the need to bring in pop stars and businessmen to sell the message.

    By :
    James
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • disillusioned
    "I mean geographically all countries in Europe are European"
    You are mistaken in that assumption ; the British Isles maybe on the European continental shelf , British people genetically are in part of European descent , but we have been for centuries an independent island state . Psychologically we do not think of ourselves as European , we are British , full stop .

    " A Common Market needs an extra layer of government "
    The EU as it is today is no longer just a common market , with laws appropriate to a common market . The law making goes way beyond as in the creating of a single federal state .
    A majority of British voters voted in the 1975 referendum for Britain to remain in the common market .
    Had there been a referendum at a later date even before Maastricht , I think they would have voted to leave . British people were lied to at the joining of the common market , the true facts were concealed from the British public in 1975 . The British people are very angry that they have been taken by their politicians into a massive European political Institution without their true knowledge and consent .
    It is silly and foolish of you to say that British people have delusions of former empire grandure , that simply isn't so .
    You also make the mistake that The EU is all about economics , that Europeans from now on must think like Americans , that money is god , that business is the only way of life , nothing else matters or must stand in the way of it .
    It is what the EU bloc consists of that British people object to . Scrap all the EU legislation and let each country govern itself in its own way , without any interference from Brussels , you might find British people more willing to cooperate .
    You say the EU is not the USSR . The EU does not have a a military defence force or army to force member states to stay in line ; but in every other respect the EU has become the EUSSR .

    By :
    David Barneby
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • Sydney , you're right on !!!

    By :
    David Barneby
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • We none of us have addressed the subject of this blog .

    Cameron is proposing a massive propaganda campaign to indoctrinate younger people in Britain , like before the 1975 referendum . As often as not older people who experienced WWII and the cold war , are supporters of the European ideal . Younger people are the more hotly eurosceptic ; they are the EU members of the future , winning them around is essential . I don't believe it can be done . Cameron's idea to repatriate many existing new laws is deeply flawed . I believe it would be very difficult to reach accord on repatriation in Brussels and might take a long time and bitter argument .
    The British public are not going to buy a repatriation of EU laws . The Conservatives will lose the 2015 general election to who ever offers an IN/OUT referendum ; so they won't be in power to implement their promised referendum .

    By :
    David Barneby
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • menesdorfer
    The EU has nothing to do with good neighbourliness or friendship among nations and peoples . British people are friendly with people all over Europe . I have lived a number of years in Italy , speak , read , write Italian fluently . I have friends in nearly every EU member state . My daughter is married to a German and lives in Berlin , her husband works at the foreign ministry . We are not little Englanders . I can tell you that many Italians a disillusioned with the EU .
    However opposed to the EU British people are , it does not impede in anyway friendships between nations and their people . The EU is a political institution for the benefit of those who run it , not for the supposed 500,000,000 people who have the misfortune to live within it boundaries .

    By :
    David Barneby
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • UK should be a non involved "good neighbour".

    By :
    david tarbuck
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • UK should be a non involved "good neighbour".

    By :
    david tarbuck
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • It would be better for everybody if Britain leaves EU. They do as they like and do not contribute in the common budget. We remain and decide things without them.

    Nowadays, when Britain asks for all kinds of exceptions, derogations, blocks the common budget, acts like an offended spinster, it is a pain in the *ss for other European countries.

    By :
    Zeus
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • @Sidney girl

    You girl you make me lough. The European parlament is elcted by the peoples representatoives in democratic order and hardly feet into your words as dictators.

    Indenpendence right, you hardly made yourself indenpendent from the britsh crown you not even got that far as the Canadians.

    Yes the Britts can look elswhere like Asia but, you doing it! For serval years Japan and Australia just to busy building their own Pan-Asian economis powerplant. Now how own earth you know how its going to develope fithy years from now? Because this things built on give and take basis.

    And lets just go back to the open borders and to your words “There are many part of England where English is no longer spoken.” Wall don’t you have any chinatows or thailand qvoters in your land?

    Well I remember times when Australia took in britts with open arms and swallow the unemployed but, your helping hand is much shorter now and there is hard restrictions for the Britts to settle down in Australia if not impossible.

    By :
    menesdorfer
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • Hello Menesdorfer, British people who are welcomed into this country in their thousands don't need "helping hands" because they are proud, hard working men and women highly capable of looking after themselves and most importantly their values and belief systems are identical to ours.

    Unlike what is happening in Britain nowadays where Brussels is trying to muscle in reminiscent of bad times gone before except this time the jackboot is less conspicuous but slowly revealing itself - again. Many of my ancestors died helping to save Europe from its self-made, habitual warring and in-fighting. My great uncles are buried in English graves and they would surely turn in them if they could see what they gave their lives for:- European takeover by stealth.

    Just reading your somewhat confused opinion here confirms my earlier post. It wasn't too long ago that the pushy, overbearing Mr Barosso spent up big on taxpayer funds touring the Asian region trying to influence how they would run their internal affairs.

    I'm very glad that when he called upon our Asian neighbours and the Australian and New Zealand governments, they told Mr Barosso in very polite terms what can be interpreted as, "Go back to Brussels and take a long jump off a very short pier".

    I hope our British cousins can gather enough voter support to give Brussels exactly the same advice. As Churchill warned, "some people will feed the crocodile hoping it will eat them last."

    No wiser warning ever given.

    Thank you. I like Europeans very much, but in their own countries, running their own governments, displaying their own cultures, and not trying to impose their ways on others. Thank you and good luck!

    By :
    Sydney girl
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • @Sidney girl

    You just don't get it or don't wanna get it.

    When I talk about helping hand I meant that Australia taken them by the tousends When the british economy where down which you don't do any longer,both Canada and you close them out.
    We do it now, we step in. You don't have a fatest idea how many britts we are helping out who works around in Europe because they can't get a job in England.. Actualy if I where racist would say stealing our jobs.In my country their numbers are in tousands so as in Germany, Holland,France,Sweden, Danmark and so on.
    Is That Union is so bad?

    You know what? I hope, if the britts leaving the Eu so as all of them and going home to

    By :
    menesdorfer
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • And again back to your words " Many of my ancestors died helping to save Europe from its self-made, habitual warring and in-fighting."

    That is the reason for many of us all around i Europe that the only road is unite and to give and take so nopthing alike should ever happen again and than parhaps our children have a better life and a future

    By :
    menesdorfer
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • menesdorfer
    I think you have the wrong end of the stick . Most Brits only speak English and therefore are not generally employable in other countries , other than as labourers . I believe many Brits work in the contruction industry, I believe because British labour laws are more flexible. otherwise I canot see a situation where mainland European countries are helping them . I believe higher wages in countries like Germany is the attraction .
    On stealing jobs , Brits complain bitterly about jobs being stolen by Poles or Asians , who'll work for less money . In some European countries Ethnic natives don't do labouring jobs if the can help it . Italy employs Romanians , Albanians, and some north Africans , Philippinas .

    By :
    David Barneby
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • Syrian War: Israel or Lebanon will be next? Consul of Macedonia to Armenia, academician Arayik Sargsyan: http://www.yerkramas.org/2013/01/03/arabskaya-vesna-avantyura-ne-imeyushhaya-ni-malejshego-otnosheniya-k-podlinnym-interesam-narodov-blizhnego-vostoka/

    By :
    ARAYIK SARGSYAN, academician, President of the Academy of ge
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • I shall be very glad to see the British leave the EU. They have'nt brought any positive contribution to the European construction since 1973 and always tried to become privilegies. We shall see if their Ancien Régime society has better chances in globalization than the continental...

    By :
    Hubert
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • Since our politicians made the huge mistake of accepting UK into our European building, the Union is stuck and frozen. We, European people, were promised Union, Federalism and Integration.
    No more opt-out !
    If British people are not able anymore to think greater than their little island... let us leave them to their past glory. And to speak a business language they can understand : let's them wait their American friends ( friends indeed ?) to come back from Asia and "save" them.
    UK OUT

    By :
    EU lover
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • @ EU lover

    It looks like we are in agreement. We both want the UK out of the EU ... but for very different reasons - you want to look inwardly to a reducing and every more centralised and homogenious United States of Europe. I want the UK to look globally and trade and live within a world community - but essentially keeping its own values, beliefs and cultural systems ... I promise ... that my version of the future is widely believed in ... in the UK (check any opinion poll that you want) ...

    By :
    Jonnie Armstrong
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • Let's see whether your American "friends" will be more compassionate with you than your European neighbours for which you have no kind interest (except financial, of course)... As for the "world community" you want to "rejoin" (Europe is obviously not part of it...), you probably mean your former dominions. And what do British "believe" in, except in the power of financial markets and in the omnipotence of anglophony? Which "vqalues" have they that the other Europeans do not share? I never found out. You may have noticed that ultraliberalism has led since 2007 to a global crisis? Did you? Please don't forget to quote your "Iron Lady": "I want my money back"!

    By :
    Hubert
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • @Hubert ... I would reply to your post but it is just vile and assumption ...

    Why is it so hard to understand ? Britain does not want any truck with a United States of Europe - we are not demanding that you don't do it ... but PLEASE ... do try to impose your will on us ...

    By :
    Jonnie Armstrong
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • The EU is the way to keep Germany and France competing and cooperating in peaceful ways. Having the UK around with its Parasitical "financial services" waiting like buzzards seeking road kill, to pounce on the REAL wealth created by honest labour of the world's most productive working class is only a hindrance to this objective.

    That is what occurred in 1912-22 and again in 1933-45. If left to "The City" (and the FED) it will reoccur. Of course that the Social Democrats sat on their hands and did not lead the working classes in revolutionary ways did not help then and it appears they would be just as bad today should similar situations occur. I.E. it would then be left to the likes of Le Pen, True Finns, New Dawn,,..&c.. to offer the 99% a counterfeit alternative to the banksters and corporate feudalism/

    By :
    david tarbuck
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • @Armstrong
    I am always awaiting for an answer to my question: which are exactly the "beliefs" and "values" of British people that separate them from other Europeans? Is it not a political myth of English (or British, I don't know) nationalism?

    By :
    Hubert
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • There should be United States of Europe, the sooner the better. National states are an old concept and alone they can no more help and protect their citizens in the modern world. Those who oppose to this idea should leave EU as soon as possible!

    By :
    Axel
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • The Eu 'costs'the UK about £7 billion per year (but it vairies moslty downward.
    The UK costs Londoners about £40 billion peryear accordin to the Economist. Thats £10,000 after tax per household.
    The'evil' is not the EU but the rest of the UK.
    London must leave the UK. We do not need a referendum It is self evident.
    London is a world city comparable to Hong Kong and Sigapore. It need its freedom from laws made for the rest of the UK

    By :
    john Harmer
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • Hubert ... essentially the beliefs and values that I am talking about are ...a (constitutional) democracy (needs a demos of course - and whatever you might pretend the EU is not yet a demos - it might be one day but not anytime soon), a sense of fair play, a snse of right and wrong, a liking for the underdog, being able to influence our political elite, a strong sense of (quiet) pride in our nation (not just England by the way - MOST people here - when pushed believe in Britain ... see the Olympics), an affection for our history and of our Royal family but mainly ... a sense that we are not being told what to do by others .... You may not liek his answe Hubert ... but it does make us different from the homogenious Europe that you seem do hell bent on wanting ...

    By :
    Jonnie Armstrong
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • To all you EU lovers ....

    What is wrong with having a good neighbour? Surely its better than the alternative.

    Once again ... the UK does NOT want to be part of a United States of Europe ... !!!!

    By :
    Jonnie Armstrong
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • The Conservative party has reached its sell by date. It should split.
    It is no longer appropriate to the age of the Internet. And it had a view of British history that does not fit the facts.

    By :
    john Harmer
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • @John Harmer ...

    Just in case your "inciteful" last post was aimed at me ... I would best be described as a 'previous Labour' voter (I live in a mining village in South Yorkshire). My views chime with the people I drink with in the local working man's club ...

    Islington Labour should try talking to the common man sometimes ...

    By :
    Jonnie Armstrong
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • Their American friends :-) thats the good one it's just make me realy lough. Thay were the first one who trow tham out the others fallowed very quicly. Canada even change the flag. Heard that Ozzies saying the britts are pain in the ....ss

    Somebody mentioned the Commonwhealt. Yepp the Africans belived that the Britts going to help to build up their country after thay robbed them, Yes they wanted to have a cash cow. Now they know better and very busy to building their very own Pan-African economic power plant with South Africa, Namibia, Botswana in the lead and also many other countries there. Finaly thay have learn the lesson
    The Britts popularity in the commonwhealt is incresing because of their behaviour.
    That’s why Robert mugabe bang the sh.t out of the white Britts there

    By :
    menesdorfer
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • @menesdorfer

    Again ... such a balanced post ...

    Foreign people (from wherever in the world) can make up their own minds but if the vile that you come out with is anything to go by then I feel that we have no fiends in France and Germany and as such looking to the world is not only sensible but is also preferable ..

    By :
    Jonnie Armstrong
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • It is time for an in-out vote for the UK. When the country joined it was under the premise of joining a free trade organisation, not all that political nonsense that followed. Europe is made up of many different nation states and that should continue to be the case. We're all proud of our history and culture, there's no desire for giving it up in favour of rule by bureaucrats from Brussels! Reason why there are so few referendums across Europe is that politicians of all countries and parties fear voters will reject the EU! And when they vote against something, well, simply let's have another vote as has happened before! Get out of Europe now! And hope the EU destroys itself rather sooner than later!

    By :
    Chris Out of Europe
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • @Armstrong
    Other nations have organised Olympic Games and are not always democratic (s. China!)... this idea is nationalistic bullshit! And the British really are great hypocrits: they oppose the EU agricultural policy (I also am - but for ecological reasons) and forget that their Royal Family (the most expensive of Europe, by the way...) is among the greatest profiteers of the CAP: about 850 000 € for the Queen and 333 000 € for Prince Charles (please read http://www.leparisien.fr/economie/polemique-autour-des-beneficiaires-de-subventions-agricoles-27-04-2009-493980.php). The EU has indeed democratic deficits, but what about the British state? And do you sincerely believe that all other Europeans (except the British) are great supporter of dictatorship? That shows how little you know about the continent! As for the uniformisation of Europe, I'm oppose it too, but I think especially the British have worked for a cultural (and especially linguistical) uniformisation, isn't it?

    By :
    Hubert
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • @Armstrong

    Soon you not going to have friends anywhere and a sortie out of The United Europe defenetely not gonna give you a lots of new friends.
    like we say here it's gonna get worst before it's gonna get better.
    We all know that but we all work for it hard to gain something better in the end

    By :
    menesdorfer
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • @ menesdorfer

    "The Britts popularity in the commonwhealt is incresing because of their behaviour.
    That’s why Robert mugabe bang the sh.t out of the white Britts there "

    I am not sure if you are from the Hungarian far right and therefore three or four degrees farther right than 'Atilla the Hun'.

    It is clear however that you are a thoroughly vile and unpleasant little person!

    George Mc

    By :
    George Mc
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • @Hubert

    1) I mentioned the Olympics to prove 'British' rather than English (which you had previously alluded to)
    2) Royal family gets from the CAP? So what ?
    3) Royal family most expensive in Europe? So what does that have to do with you? We pay for it. When or if we don't want to anymore ... we wont (and I expect that it is still a whole load cheaper than a French President for example. But again ... so what?
    4)why are you getting upset? We want to leave (well the majority does anyway) ... we don't like this club and do not want to be a part of it. Why get upset about it? Surely you should us wish us well and hope for friendship and trade in the future ????

    Friendship and trade ... there is an idea ... ?

    What do you think?

    (please try and reply without 'hate' and 'vile' ...

    By :
    Jonnie Armstrong
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • @ Zeus

    "They do as they like and do not contribute in the common budget. We remain and decide things without them. "

    Try getting your facts right, third highest contributing nation with a net seven billion pounds sterling (eight or nine billion euros).

    George Mc

    By :
    George Mc
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • I am always amused when, in debating an issue such as the EU or climate change, those who oppose my views always, without exception, resort to some form of abuse. My experience in the past has proved to me that such an approach, devoid of facts or rational thoughts,is indicative that those with opposing thoughts to mine have no clear argument - indeed, have lost the argument. However, I am still awaiting an answer (from anybody who cares to answer, but especially the federasts!)from my original posting - 1)Do you think that a majority of the 500 million people in Europe would vote for a US of E if they were given a referendum? 2) Do you think that, as further integration emerges, the 27 countries will give their electorates referenda?
    I would be grateful for some proven case, evidence or reasoned argument rather than an emotional rant

    By :
    Don Latuske
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • @ John Harmer

    "The Eu 'costs'the UK about £7 billion per year (but it vairies moslty downward.
    The UK costs Londoners about £40 billion peryear accordin to the Economist. Thats £10,000 after tax per household.
    The'evil' is not the EU but the rest of the UK.
    London must leave the UK. We do not need a referendum It is self evident.
    London is a world city comparable to Hong Kong and Sigapore. It need its freedom from laws made for the rest of the UK"

    What a well thought out post John. You will of course know that British (English) are now in a minority in London. Maybe you want to take the millions that come into to London to work from the leafy suburbs. You crack on pal.

    George Mc

    By :
    George Mc
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • @Chris Out of Europe

    "And hope the EU destroys itself rather sooner than later!"

    This is your dream but it's not gonna happen. The only thing gonna happen that you are outside and lookin in.
    But you know what, go and take all those tousends of left overs with you who lives here in Europe with us.

    By :
    menesdorfer
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • @ Don Latuske

    Don your well thought out two questions will not get a reasoned answer simply because we know that even the countries with the most ardent Federalist politicians probably wouldn't be able to carry their electorate. Certainly not from the countries that pay the piper!

    Cheers mate
    George Mc

    By :
    George Mc
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • Menesdorfer ...

    Do you want to do a swap ... the thousands of Brits that work in continental Europe for the hundreds of thousands of EU nationals that work here?

    As always though ... your reaction is to lash out ... Why ??? Just be good neighbours, friends and trading partners .... what is the problem and why the abuse. By the way I do not wish the EU dead - if you want it then crack on. I just do not want the UK to be part of it ... why does that worry you so much ?

    By :
    Jonnie Armstrong
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • @Armstrong
    1) that's what I said : the OG doesn't give ANY argument for British or English "values" which could be opposed to (continental) European ones...
    2) the British people like to forget it...
    3) it's not especially a token of great love to democracy to give millions to a people only because they are born Windsors (in fact Saxe-Coburg and Gotha) and to recognize that family as your eternal chief of state?
    4) "well the majority does anyway": again not very democratic indeed! People have not voted yet, so far I know! British nationalism is not better than French, German, Ungarian or Russian (or others), even if your charming Murdoch medias are claiming the contrary...

    By :
    Hubert
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • @Hubert

    1) OG proved that a nation could get behind its "UK" team and work together as a British nation ... you were pointing to their being no British nation .. using words like "English". All this did was prove that one does exsist. I never said it proves values ... I said it proves nationhood ...

    2)Again ... so what? Is it not a tad facist to pick out one particular family and because of their wealth / position and have a go at them for that only. I expect that Sir richard Branson has a lot of land and gets a lot out of CAP too ... why have you not mentioned him?

    3) Our choice ... if ever we do not want them then they will go ... that is democracy. But as I said before ... our choice - nothing to do with any other nation - just as I wouldn't dare to tell you how to run your country - thatis up to you !

    4) Exactly !!!! If only our politicos would give us the vote !!! All we have to go on so far are opinion polls ... however ... these are very firm and only getting firming. A clear majority (as in 'more than 50%' not just the 'most people') now want to leave the EU. I do not understand your natonalism comment at all. It is not nationalism to be proud of your country and have the belief that your country can go for it on the world economic stage ....

    As I said before ... why are you not wishing us well ???

    3)

    By :
    Jonnie Armstrong
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • Well compared to 20 miles across the Channel (15 minutes by tgv) Australia is several oceans away from the richest place in the world. Maybe easier for such an unhabited continent cut off from everywhere, to go shopping wherever sunnier it rather fancies doing business. Maybe the brits should abandon england and its european civilisation, gothic churches, roman roads, norman castles, feudal systems and dense european cities for exile on a deserted land one almost forgets on world maps, with a 120 year history, where they could always claim they were marsians, nobody would care.

    I guess the equivalent for you would be New Zealand wanting to renounce on all economic agreements with Australia cause they feel it makes much more sense for them to develop trade with Russia or Turkey.

    By :
    uk-skeptic
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • @Armstrong
    3) then stop giving democracy lessons to the whole world...
    4) your words are teeming with British nationalism of Murdoch press level - I'm afraid you are believing a little bit too much what the Sun or other populist newspapers write. Please read also publications of other quality and from other European countries.

    By :
    Hubert
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • @ Hubert

    Look at any and ALL of MY posts ..

    My view has always been ..

    1) Not for ANYONE to lecture anyone else
    2) People (of any race) are allowed to self-determination
    3) If the EU wants a US of Eu then that is fine its just not for me.
    4) By the same token you shouldn't tell me how to live my life.

    In my opinion, YOUR views are vile, racist and are hate filled. You are, without doubt, anti-British to your core.

    PS - I hav never bought a Murdoch paper ...

    By :
    Jonnie Armstrong
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • There is no native reserve in the EU dictatorship.

    By :
    uk-skeptic
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • Uh, I see the topic has become really hot. Whenever I have the time I will raise a few more issues here.

    @ George Mc

    Dude, look at the numbers. Your economy and the European one (let's say the French, German, etc.) are very interrelated as you export around 56% of your total export to EU states. The British economy will become way more crippled without the EU and I also believe that OK, each country is specific and has its own traditions. This will never change. But I don't give a damn about history, customs, and wars from the past. Simply because the past was full of shit compared to the present. Nowadays I don't see the point of bragging about the achievements of my nation, which btw is one of the oldest in Europe. But I do not live in the past, I wanna look into the future and the only thing I care about is people's well-being. My point is that there are many other European countries which had past much more glorious than that of Great Britain but are not that crazy about that past anymore.

    Also, militarily, Russia cannot do a whole lot nowadays, believe me. Your statement that they have the capability of invading Europe again, well, I don't see that happening. The cold war is over. Nowadays Europe and the US are so militarily interrelated that it's impossible for countries like Russia to go all the way to Madrid ;)

    Another fact. The budget of the EU institutions is only about 2% of the EU's GDP which is nothing compared to other countries. Honestly, I do not think the EU wants to control everything plus most of its policies (not all) make sense to me. Furthermore, as I said before, I do not always agree with all EU proposals. As a true supporter of the social market economy I would not be in favour of any very leftist policies simply because they distort efficient functioning of markets. But I do not think the union is going down that road. Look at the EU parliament and you'll see :)

    PS guys, please let's keep the tone nice, otherwise it wouldn't make much sense. Hatred and stubbornness are not the way to having a meaningful discussion.

    By :
    disillusioned
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • Also, I appreciate the opinions of people from other continents (like Australia) but I'd assume they are way too biased so I'm not expecting a Canadian or an Australian to be pro-European ;)

    By :
    disillusioned
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • Guys, won't be able to post comments in the next few days (the Eurosceptics are now happy I guess). But I'd say that what annoys me a lot is all the whining. If you, English people, wanna leave the Union. It's your choice. No one else can tell you what to do. You're responsible for the decisions you make and you will bear all the consequences of those decisions. Goodbye for now and wish you all the best!!!

    By :
    disillusioned
    - Posted on :
    05/01/2013
  • @ disillusioned
    Yo!

    I don't know where you are getting your figures from but it is generally accepted that our trade with the EU is going down while going up with the rest of the world. Approximately 48% is being quoted by political journalists. Don't get me wrong I accept that is a sizeable lump. I just believe that for the benefit of any argument that we try and stick to the facts where possible. Please take a look at this link (Daniel Hannan MEP, Conservative in the Daily Telegraph). He explains and argues my point better than I ever could.
    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100184934/the-case-against-eu-membership/

    “But I do not live in the past, I wanna look into the future and the only thing I care about is people's well-being. “

    No problem with that disillusioned but do remember please that our history does go some way to defining who we are as individuals and as a people.

    We disagree on much around the EU disillusioned, but you unlike some offer a decent explanation for your point of view, which I must respect. I would however very much like to try and explain to you better how many Brits feel. To assist in this I have copied a couple of paragraphs from an article written by Gareth Harding (below) 'The Myth of Europe'. Your command of English is excellent so if you want, and have time, please try the following link for the full article. It is very well written and will inform you better how many Brits feel.
    http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/01/03/the_myth_of_europe?page=0,0

    "European fundamental values are sacred," Jan Peter Balkenende, then Dutch prime minister, said in 2004. When it came to actually defining those values, however, he was fuzzier, admitting, "We have been discussing the idea of Europe for the last 1,200 years, but we cannot grasp what it means." That's the problem: Values matter because they are the glue that binds countries and peoples together. They help define what a society stands for and against.
    American values are clearly and succinctly defined in the Bill of Rights and U.S. Constitution, which most American schoolchildren have to study and some senators carry in their back pockets. The European Union, on the other hand, has no constitution, and its Charter of Fundamental Rights only became legally binding in 2009. The nearest thing the EU has to a founding document is an almost impenetrable legalistic treaty that has been amended six times since the 1957 signing of the Treaty of Rome. The latest incarnation of the EU's rule book, the 2007 Treaty of Lisbon, commits the union to values such as free speech, democracy, and sustainable development. No wonder it is hard to disagree with American journalist Christopher Caldwell, who wrote in his provocative 2009 book, Reflections on the Revolution in Europe, "There is no consensus, not even the beginning of a consensus, about what European values are."
    In opinion polls, however, voters today consistently identify much more with their nation-states than with Europe. As Chris Patten, former European commissioner for external affairs, has said, "The nation is alive and well -- more potent than ever in some respects.… It is the largest unit, perhaps, to which people will willingly accord emotional allegiance." In fact, even the nation-state is too much for many Europeans. Europe has 16 more countries today than it had in 1988, thanks to the shattering of artificial states -- the Soviet Union, Yugoslavia, and Czechoslovakia. In Belgium, a country smaller than Maryland, there is such a vicious division between Flanders and Wallonia that until December there had been no government for well over 500 days -- a world record.

    Russia is the largest country in the world with vast resources and is forecast by the CEBR to replace Germany at number four in the Economic league table, ahead of India and Brazil. The EU/NATO should ignore that at their peril.

    Regards
    George Mc

    By :
    George Mc
    - Posted on :
    06/01/2013
  • @ disillusioned

    "Nowadays I don't see the point of bragging about the achievements of my nation, which btw is one of the oldest in Europe."

    What is it about non brits who post on here who appear to be afraid to say what country you come from?

    "My point is that there are many other European countries which had past much more glorious than that of Great Britain but are not that crazy about that past anymore."

    Educate me!

    George Mc

    By :
    George Mc
    - Posted on :
    06/01/2013
  • @ Menesdorfer

    My friend, I was born in Germany but are now a UK citizen with UK passport - and proud of it! I want the UK out of this EU monster but also hope we can do away with all those EU institutions soon to save the Rest of Europe also. Your name suggests you're a German: so let your fellow countrymen have a vote on Europe and you'll find that the result is not as clear-cut as you wished! Better still - let all of "European citizens" have an in-out vote or give them the option of a "Free-Trade-Zone" (as we want it) versus a "political union" and you will be surprised by the result (but we Brits won't be)!

    By :
    Chris Out of Europe
    - Posted on :
    06/01/2013
  • Europhiles
    From my experience of living in Italy , I have found the educated Italians and probably other Europeans , look to Britain for sound political judgements and the way forward . For the British people not to like membership of the EU , to want OUT is seen as a betrayal that casts doubts upon the whole comcept of the EU .

    It is my experience that the people of mainland European countries had the stuffing completely knocked out of them in WWII , that several generations on that has never been recovered .
    In Italy I found situations where people felt they had no rights against local or national government .
    For instance that your farm could be compulsorily purchased for an industrial zone at an agricultural price , without question or argument , that government , corrupt or not could do what it liked .
    When bullied by me to seek good legal representation , friends then had the choice of keeping their land , or selling at an industrial price .

    The bitterness that I find here that Europhiles express seems to indicate to me that the idea of Britain wanting to leave the EU calls into question the whole validity of the EU . The British attitude becomes a slur on EU values , undermines the cohesion of other member states .

    If Referenda were held in all 27 EU sovereign states as to the continuance of the EU ; there is a strong risk that the people would vote against a single federal state . The British peoples desire to leave the EU highlights that point and undermines the morale of EU leaders and other member states .

    The imbalance of national economic competitiveness, created by the single currency has created an economic crisis that will rumble on whilever the Euro exists .
    I believe that the uniting of so many states into a political as well as economic block has already begun to destroy the original concept of the common market ,which was the foundation upon which the EU was created .

    By :
    David Barneby
    - Posted on :
    06/01/2013
Background: 

Britain must use the upheaval created by the eurozone crisis to forge a new relationship with the European Union, Prime Minister David Cameron said on 14 December, following the last summit of heads of state and government in Brussels.

Cameron is grappling with a rising anti-EU mood at home that could threaten his chances of re-election.

Speaking at the end of the summit that secured the first part of a banking union, Cameron played down fears Britain's future lies on the margins of a two-tier Europe, while eurozone members build an ever-stronger core.

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