'Don't knows' may swing the 2014 Scottish independence vote

Tell me George - how are my comments "unhelpful"?

By the way it's a pity you did not include the group to whom I was referring to: "tory-vermin" & to be honest Geeorge (I can call you George cann't I?) you could accuse me of being somewhat charitable - you see the late great Nye Bevan believed that Tories were "lower than vermin". Thus in some respects my equating tories with vermin is doing them a favour. Unlike Nye I don't feel hatred for Tories - why waste strong emotions on such a vacuous bunch - quoting Exeter in Henry V with respect to Henry's views on the Dauphin:

Scorn and defiance; slight regard, contempt,
And any thing that may not misbecome
The mighty sender, doth he prize you at

Which pretty well sums up my view of the ruling tory-vermin, their supporters & their pathetic voters. You would not happen to be one of them - would you George?

Mike can never resist throwing in a "tory vermin" statement whether or not it has any relevance. Virulent socialists in Scotland are not going to be the deciding factor.

Quote Trying to move forward while attached to Westminster is like dragging around an old urine soaked mattress. Unquote

Classy!
Makes an old Etonian positively cuddly!

You explore away and come back when you have something tangible to offer us in Scotland. I'm not holding my breath.

I have been involved in this argument now for about 3 years and will admit to a bit of battle fatigue. The thought of another year of it fills me with dread. I watched the STV debate between Anas Sarwar and Nicola Sturgeon last week where the standard of debate was awful and more akin to an Old Firm' match. The thought of either of them representing Scotland abroad makes me cringe.

I am not going to debate the McCrone report (nearly forty years ago) as things have moved on and you can hire your own academic (the SNP have). I agree with you that politicians will twist the facts to suit their case and would point out that there is no one more adept or capable in that department than Alex Salmond. If it is all about the oil you need to remember that Shetland will exact a heavy price or you will be left with nothing.

For me it is simply about those who want Independence at any cost against those of us who would prefer to stay part of the UK. 5 years ago the Nationalists were shouting about Independence within Europe (we can substitute Westminster tyranny with the Brussels version), the Euro and the Arc of prosperity (Eire, Iceland and Norway). Now its lets keep the £Pound and all the good points of the Union (you'll still be British, it's just a wee administrative change, etc etc).

Like many I don't look at the oil and say that's mine and nobody gets any unless I say so. Some of us prefer a more mature attitude like this is a small Island and if somewhere on it or offshore something valuable is found, then let us share for the common good for heaven's sake!

Hopefully by the time you return to Scotland the SNP will have clarified their position on small petty things like, Tax, Defence, Pensions, Corporation Tax, Currency and Immigration. As they are hell bent on EU membership, how they are going to avoid the Euro and all the rules that the UK has to play by.

It may seem petty but I noticed a recent poll which said as many as 600,000 would wish to leave Scotland if Independence came about. Which raises another question if the SNP win the war how will they then win the peace?

I wish you well on your return, but bring a tin hat!

@ exiledscot

I would applaud your reasoned approach, it is much needed.
I tend to treat ALL politicians with a large and healthy portions of distrust (they tend to lie and waffle).
You are of course right, their is absolutely no way of proving whether Independence would be good for Scotland, either in the short or long term. You would not think that though when you listen to the politicians.

I am not so sure about your head or heart decision as a survey last year (the Herald I think) showed a lot of Scots would go for Independence if they were going to be £500 per annum better of. Make what you may of that.

I am fairly unusual among Scots in that I feel British first then Scots. Possibly something to do with being in the Services and having worked and lived for a long time in England. I will part company with you regarding your views on Europe as I believe that we have surrendered too much to Brussels who are determined to get their way with a US of E.

I personally believe once again there are too many scare stories about what would happen to the UK if we were to leave the EU. There would be a lot of huffing and puffing but in the end I believe that we would still have a trading agreement which in turn would allow us to negotiate new agreements with other countries. We buy a lot more from the EU than they sell to us.
The argument on that one is not won yet as I believe that there will be a referendum (the boil needs to be lanced one way or other) after the government has done some ‘staged renegotiation’ and applied heavy spin the electorate may just fall for it. A bit like the Scottish referendum which may fall because of the fear of the unknown.

Quote As an aside Id be interested to know how many people said they would leave if Scotland stays in the Union but the UK leaves Europe. Unquote.

An interesting question. I think we will have to give a ‘don’t know’ answer with a recognition that Scots, like the Irish, have always left the country for pastures new and I don’t think that will ever change.

My curved ball to you (working in the EU) is this: How many EU electorates do you think would vote to stay in the EU/Euro if asked in a referendum tomorrow?

Regards

@ exiledscott

Quote Is not the Union (by definition) a united states of Britain in all but name? worth pondering I think. Unquote

No need to ponder, you are correct. I also agree some 300 years ago that those who could read and write were probably against it. Was it not in fact because we were skint after our attempt at establishing ‘Caledonia’ in Panama, better known as the Darien Disaster.
Indeed it could be compared to our reason for joining the Common Market because we (UK) were a basket case and skint after the Trade Union barons nearly took us down in the 60’s and 70’s.

There however the comparison stops as in the UK we are a democratic nation (or collection of) who all speak one language who have a shared heritage. Some would also say it is democratic because the people have the ability to communicate with each other and the population is a size that we are comfortable with.

All of the above are the reasons why the EU is not a loved institution. Too many languages, to many cultures and too many people (500 million plus is unmanageable) and totally undemocratic. It is my view that we are trying to construct something that is artificial. Barossa talks about ‘Europeans’. Can someone please define for me what a European is? Is it a bit like being Asian or African? We need to learn from history and the example of the USSR and Yugoslavia should be ringing alarm bells.

I take your point on your ‘straw poll’ which may be a little biased purely by the fact that you all want to work in Europe and I take it the EU.

I used to work for GEC - Marconi Radar in Leicester - and can tell you that if a job could be done by 3 people instead of one then that's what happened. The unions and the management were equally culpable in GEC's demise.

It was not just Triumph, what happened to BSA before they merged, Norton, BLMC, Hillman (Routes Group), the list goes on and on and. I am not here to defend all management in Britain but I have absolutely no doubt that your little trade union friends and the Labour party were culpable.

I know that you must pine for the days of Aneurin Bevan and wish that your old pal Viscount Stansgate had better luck in finding decent management when the tax payer put the Unions in charge of the Workers Cooperative at Triumph (Meriden).

Incidentally the new successful company has a lot of its assembly done in Thailand, I wonder why.
Whether we like it or not the Unions and their members priced the country out of work.

Although you hate to admit it the country was then dug out of the Sh*te by Maggie and was very much on the up. The rest as they say is history.

Quote Suggestion: ditch the simplistic crap/cheap shots - it insults our intelligence & does you no favours. Unquote.

I'll leave it for others to read your posts and evaluate your intelligence.
I will happily do likewise and expect no favours from you or anyone else.

By the way it is not my fault that the Labour Party has morphed into New Labour and become Tories mark II.

You are getting into a stew 'old boy'. Suggest you ask your Doctor to up the medication and get your carer to sing you a lullaby.

I have read some negative posters on various forums but you take the biscuit. If Martians landed here and read your posts they would never understand why we are a G8 country.

I had not realised that you are the font of all knowledge, not just on Scotland but all points south and west. It of course must all be true as you are a Nationalist and you have said so.

I do apologise if my understanding of the referendum is mistaken. I had understood that if voters said NO then we would carry on as we have been with the possibility of further powers being devolved (Devo Max idea).

If this happened we would remain part of a country which still has a lot of influence in the world as one of the UN five permanent members with one of the most extensive diplomatic services in the world. For our young men and women who are interested we would also have a military which could offer excellent training and careers.

Holyrood would still be able to make many decisions that affect our lives. Indeed if we had a No vote perhaps the Scottish politicians could stop grand standing about Independence and get down to managing the substantial powers that they do have.

We would have the strength and security that comes from being a G8 country of 63 million with all the benefits that go with that, both worldwide and in dealing with the EU.

There would be no problem continuing to trade with our biggest partner England, assuming of course that you are allowed to be part of the Sterling area and not forced into the Euro. I would have thought this would be good for employment and no jobs would be lost because of the loss of military bases and the closure of BAE at Clydebank and Govan plus of course Faslane, Coulport and Rosyth.

On the other hand it was also my understanding that the SNP would put out their manifesto to the Scottish people telling them what they would like to do if there were to be a YES vote for Independence.

Now maybe I am wrong but life experience has given me a healthy distrust of politicians and their promises. I do however in the main trust and respect the decision of my fellow citizens to dispose of governments who break their promises. I am sure you can see my concerns here if the Nationalists keep their powder dry to nearer the referendum and then use slight of hand and promises that can’t be kept to get their way. If lies are told will we be able to reverse the situation? I had thought not. I think I may also be under another mistaken belief that all these promises can be given without any proof statements which are checkable.

I would be grateful If you could share some of this knowledge and certainty with me in order that I can get the reassurance that I, and my friends and family need before embarking on this journey to the ‘promised land’.

Will you be able to guarantee that my pension and any increases will be the same as the RUK?

Will you be able to guarantee that my Council tax or Local Income Tax will not be more (allowing for inflation) than I am paying now.

Will you be able to guarantee that my Income tax will not be higher than the RUK?

Will you be able to guarantee that if our smaller health service does not have the specialist that I or my family require that it will be offered and paid for in the RUK (or the EU if we are in it)?

Will you be able to reassure my wife and I that we will have dual nationality or remain British citizens with the accompanying passport.

Will you be able to guarantee that my children will not have to leave the Country to look for work because Scotland does not have control over its own interest rates being in hock to the Bank of England or European Central bank?

If I am wrong and you are right can you tell me how these guarantees will be valid as it is possible that after Independence is gained the Labour party or a coalition could be elected in the elections that follow and bin all these promises (well after all they will say they were totally unrealistic).

Can you somehow guarantee to me and my fellow citizens that Independence is not just one huge leap of faith into the dark?

I hope that in asking question which I know you will be able to provide answers to that you will not feel it necessary to accuse me of ‘Shutting down the debate through negativity’.

This link provides an opportunity to ask questions about Independence and where possible answers are provided. http://www.yesscotland.net/undecided_responses

The analogy you have chosen to use rather makes the case that the many Scots who have a bigger vision and greater faith in their own ability to make a positive change for the future, also have the strength, determination and courage to do so in spite of the efforts of project fear. Each to his own. End of discussion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49WTQ-04GqY&feature=youtu.be